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Old 05-01-2012, 10:30 PM   #1
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81 Corvette Dana 44 Drag Race Diff Options

I build rear diffs like Gary does here on C3 D.C.
I don't specialize in C3 rear diffs though.
I build mostly Solid Rear axle diffs for performance street, Drag race, some circle dirt track, 4X4 off road use, & C4 Vettes.

Guy I know has a 1981 Corvette.
We were going to do a solid axle Ford 9 inch 4 link rear conversion. 4 link kit from Racecraft.
Then this C3 81 Vette owner had his eye on a 1967 Camaro Drag car with a 4-link rear.
He came up $3,000 short buying it.
He would not budge on his offer nor the seller of the '67 drag car Camaro.

1 month later, back to his 81 C3.
The owner is in love with the C3 IRS.
Not my 1st choice for drag race use.

Did some research on Gary's old threads from the last 4 years & other people posting here.

Can a C3 Iron center section carrier assembly be fitted to the stock 81 cast aluminum batwing cover ?

Can a C4 1985-1996 Dana 44 HD differential assembly be bolted to the 81 c3 batwing cover with modifictions ?

Checked out Gary's Super 10's & super 12's.
I have a pretty good idea what they would cost.
He has to put 25 to 40 hours + worth of labor into each.
Building rear diffs correct does take time.
Flat rate is not how I work either.
Throw that flatrate book out the window when I build a rear diff.
No matter how long it takes to get the job done right.
Only thing that matters.

I know the rest of the rear suspension needs upgrades too other than a diff swap or upgrade.

Give me some ideas what could be done for parts at prices of :
$2,000, $4,000, $5,000, $6000.

Owner ran last year 11.60's in the 1/4 mile.
Not sure of trap speeds.
Did break U-joints.
Somehow the stock geared C3 Dana 44 survived.

I want to setup the gears & blueprint the posi myself.
My only request.
I will install all parts into the 81 Vette myself.

He wants 10's in the 1/4 or faster.
10's keep him happy for this year I believe.
Nitrous passes.
Turbo 350 trans with a 3,500 + RPM stall.
I will try & talk him out of a transbrake yet.
Sure to break more IRS parts then.
New fresh SBC -Camshaft makes peak power at 7,500 + RPM's.
So he needs a gear for sure.

Also he is using real drag slicks.
Just as he did last year 2011.

Brian R.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:29 AM   #2
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Have you considered converting to C4 rear suspension with coil overs and using a Dana 44HD from a Viper? Street Shop would likely have the parts you need.

I wanted the strongest one I could get for behind my 700hp LS7. This was the best I could do other than going to straight axle.

Some of the early Hemi Mopar race cars had a Dana 60 set up for independent rear but they are very rare today. I wish Strange would consider doing one.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:32 AM   #3
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Well you have some options.

I don't know if the 44 will bolt up or not.

If you want to try and run that 81 diff you can machine a steel cap to the LH pad. I have one here to do when I get caught up but I still don't care for the 80-82 diff's. I don't think it will last with your power level. Of sourse that is just my opinion, some will tell you they are running them stock with 400hp and there is no issue. I rarely try and debate that anymore, if they last good for them, if not they will have to make adjustments.

Swap in a 71-79 iron diff and it should bolt to the cover, you will need to swap out the strut rods, 1/2 shafts,get the brackets, and shorten the DS. I do some of my own mods to them as well.

The best 10 bolt vette diff is a Super 10 and those can be built at different levels but I'd say they are good to about 500-550hp depending on power, usage,and traction. The stoutest one I built was also cryo treated and is in a street/strip car. Again I have added in some of my own mods to these.

If you want the best vette IRS, then I would use a 12 bolt setup. You can not use the aluminum cover though so you have to fab up the mounts for the early cars into the 81. 12 bolts can be built at a couple of levels, I have used them in 950-1000 hp vettes. My son runs one in his street/strip 75 he's in the mid 11's with a 350 and mini blower.

NOTE: I never use the term bullet proof, ANYTHING will break given enough abuse. 12 bolts have broken but they are still 4 times as strong as any 10 bolt.

Costwise, really would have to be figured depending on build level. You can always call me and we can go over what the current parts run but since you're doing the labor just check Tom's site. All the iron parts are listed there. In most cases the full cost of a 12 1350 or 1480 12 bolt IRS is more then the actual value of a typical 74-82 stock vette. That is a deal breaker many times but it is fact and should be told to owners before hand.

You can machine and fit the cap if you want to use the 81 diff, the rest of the parts you can also get from your supplier so that would the least costly option.

Super 10 and 12 now depend on the availability of the good spiders. They have been getting low but there are still some available but you won't get them alone anymore. I some here but have several interested in builds so I have to hold them for full jobs. The rest of the parts are not a problem and there are plenty of cores around. I picked up a complete 78 diff with cover and yokes for $300 at the last swap meet I went to.

The thing is once you strengthen one area you have to address the rest or it will break. Case in point, my son's 75 again. He ran out of cash so he kept the engine, BW ST-10, and the 1350 12 bolt IRS. Well the weak link was the trans and that car sucked up every ST-10 we had. The last one blew apart in the staging lane a few weeks ago. So a Liberty Gear Tremic is going in to get beat up and see how it holds up.

You have to address the 1/2 shaft and T/A spindles. Use Tom's parts here as well. Arms can be stock or offset if wanted those are strong enough to hold up in your application.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:45 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr1999 View Post
Well you have some options.

I don't know if the 44 will bolt up or not.

If you want to try and run that 81 diff you can machine a steel cap to the LH pad. I have one here to do when I get caught up but I still don't care for the 80-82 diff's. I don't think it will last with your power level. Of sourse that is just my opinion, some will tell you they are running them stock with 400hp and there is no issue. I rarely try and debate that anymore, if they last good for them, if not they will have to make adjustments.

Swap in a 71-79 iron diff and it should bolt to the cover, you will need to swap out the strut rods, 1/2 shafts,get the brackets, and shorten the DS. I do some of my own mods to them as well.

The best 10 bolt vette diff is a Super 10 and those can be built at different levels but I'd say they are good to about 500-550hp depending on power, usage,and traction. The stoutest one I built was also cryo treated and is in a street/strip car. Again I have added in some of my own mods to these.

If you want the best vette IRS, then I would use a 12 bolt setup. You can not use the aluminum cover though so you have to fab up the mounts for the early cars into the 81. 12 bolts can be built at a couple of levels, I have used them in 950-1000 hp vettes. My son runs one in his street/strip 75 he's in the mid 11's with a 350 and mini blower.

NOTE: I never use the term bullet proof, ANYTHING will break given enough abuse. 12 bolts have broken but they are still 4 times as strong as any 10 bolt.

Costwise, really would have to be figured depending on build level. You can always call me and we can go over what the current parts run but since you're doing the labor just check Tom's site. All the iron parts are listed there. In most cases the full cost of a 12 1350 or 1480 12 bolt IRS is more then the actual value of a typical 74-82 stock vette. That is a deal breaker many times but it is fact and should be told to owners before hand.

You can machine and fit the cap if you want to use the 81 diff, the rest of the parts you can also get from your supplier so that would the least costly option.

Super 10 and 12 now depend on the availability of the good spiders. They have been getting low but there are still some available but you won't get them alone anymore. I some here but have several interested in builds so I have to hold them for full jobs. The rest of the parts are not a problem and there are plenty of cores around. I picked up a complete 78 diff with cover and yokes for $300 at the last swap meet I went to.

The thing is once you strengthen one area you have to address the rest or it will break. Case in point, my son's 75 again. He ran out of cash so he kept the engine, BW ST-10, and the 1350 12 bolt IRS. Well the weak link was the trans and that car sucked up every ST-10 we had. The last one blew apart in the staging lane a few weeks ago. So a Liberty Gear Tremic is going in to get beat up and see how it holds up.

You have to address the 1/2 shaft and T/A spindles. Use Tom's parts here as well. Arms can be stock or offset if wanted those are strong enough to hold up in your application.
Thanks for getting back to me Gary.
Yes I understand weak links in drivetrains from the engine to the rear diff.
Its like a weak link in a 10 foot chain.
That weak link will eventually fail under racing load.

I know what it will likely cost.
$700 here, $550 there, $350 for that, $800 there, $1200 for that, ect.....LOL.
Not for my Vette.
I have a 1987 C4 Vert.
Installing a 1957 Pontiac 9.3 inch rear diff solid axle & 4 link suspension into mine.

C3 rear 81 Vette options is for someone I know.

I am not interested in completing all the machine work myself to build a Super 12 C3 Iron Diff assembly.
I do have a South Bend lathe & Bridgeport Verticle Mill.
Have access to a blanchard surface grinder & a Brown & Sharp surface grinder.

The best option I think for this 81 Vette owner would be to ditch the C3 dana 44 IRS alltogether & install a Ford 9" inch with a 4- link coil over shock rear setup.
He can beat on & race the car for 10 years from now & it will not break.
Use Strange, Mark Williams, Moser, Currie parts.
Richmond Gearset likewise.

But You have to do what he customer wants.


I may be interested in the C3 Dana 44 steel carrier bearing cap for the ring gear side.

Can you shed some light or details on the C3 80-81 Dana 44 housing?
What makes it a POS in your eyes Gary ?
Read elsewhere on another members post that machine work was very poor in these years.

The C4 1985-1996 Dana 44's I have rebuilt & blueprinted had very high quality machine work.
The housing were fairly stiff too.
I could feel that using my Kent Moore Housing spreader(have the special C3- C4 Dana 44-36 adapters too),
Measured with a dial indicator not to spread the case to far & ruin it.
Nothing is a stiffer & stronger housing for drag race use as far as an integral style housing than a Dana 60.
Near impossible to remove the diff carrier without a housing spreader on a Dana 60.

Thanks Gary,

Brian R.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7TRoadster View Post
Have you considered converting to C4 rear suspension with coil overs and using a Dana 44HD from a Viper? Street Shop would likely have the parts you need.

I wanted the strongest one I could get for behind my 700hp LS7. This was the best I could do other than going to straight axle.

Some of the early Hemi Mopar race cars had a Dana 60 set up for independent rear but they are very rare today. I wish Strange would consider doing one.
Thanks for the tips.
Viper Dana 44 HD may be a viable option yet too.
They get real good $$$ for them used.
Viper Tax there.

Dana 60 IRS Vintage Race setup ?
Never heard of them.
Interesting.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:26 PM   #6
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OK Gary,
I checked out Tom's for C3 1962-1979 Iron Diff parts.
Super 10 & Super 12.

Super 12 package not such a bad deal.
Within reason.

Looking down the pages,
everything stock in the 1980-1982 IRS system is garbage for drag race use.
Its all weak links or fuses ready to blow out drag racing hard bone stock.

Hmm.
It does add up..........
Looking like $6K cash will fall short for whats required to complete as Tom or You would then for a C3 Vette.
Correct Gary ?

BR
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Old 05-03-2012, 01:42 PM   #7
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I talked to Tom years ago about building those and he just didn't have anything to offer. Again you have the machines you need - give the steel cap a shot, set it up for 001 rock.

I don't recall if the holes are inserts or just tapped aluminum in the housing. I don't like the loading on tapped aluminum holes either.

I don't know if $6000 would cover the 12 bolt, 1350 axles,and the labor to build the diff, shafts,and T/A's. You could always figure the part cost and what ever your labor rate is and see if it works out. I would be looking for someone parting out a 71-79 vette and get all the cores.

Here is an 1980 diff I have and will play around with once I get to it. I have people asking me all the time to build these so I might as well help them out. You will notice these do not have the springs and plates in them like the Eatons. That is for all you nay sayers out there that say you can't build a posi without springs. You will also see the aluminum caps, cross shaft grooves,and rough casting.










To me, the amount of time and money sunk into these is better off in an iron conversion. The weight savings is not that much, this is 65lbs without the cover. A complete iron diff, cover, axles is 100 lbs. A custom built iron will be better then any 80-82 vette Dana - of course that's only my opinion.
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:32 PM   #8
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The C3 Corvette Dana 44 Carrier Bearing caps are ITSY- BITSY compared to a C4 Corvette Dana 44 made from 1985-1996.

From your photos Gary,
They look like C4 Dana 36 sized bearing caps.
DINKY.
I see why you are scared to build them up for high performe & drag race use.
Its a time bomb ready to blow under modern day Torque & HP levels.
Oh man...........

What size are the Carrier bearing outer diameters on the 1980-1982 C3 Dana 44 Gary ?
2.891" or 3.062" inches.

C4 dana 44 uses 3.0625", same as 1965 to 1972 A & F body Chevy 8-7/8" inch 12 bolt.
Also same as modern day Ford 8.8" inch made since 1987 to present day.

I see there are NO casted pedestal reinforcements on the aluminum carrier bearing caps to rear aluminum batwing cover as 1985 to 1996 C4 used.

The Dana 44 Trackloc unit looks real rough casted form in 1980 too.
Later C4 Tracklocs have a better finished as cast appearance.

Thinking.

Have to know Illinois racers like I do.
If it breaks, your always to blame.
No matter what.
So I am used to building solid axle diffs my way to my specs.
If they do not want to listen to me, I walk away.


Owner of 81 vette has some $$$.
But every drag racer gets stupid every now & then & push all parts & gear past the limits set.

Thank Gary,

BR
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Old 05-03-2012, 05:36 PM   #9
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Like You Gary,

I don't like working for free.
My wife here does not like that also.

Have to Paid for our work; craftsmanship done.
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Old 05-03-2012, 06:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtr1999 View Post
I talked to Tom years ago about building those and he just didn't have anything to offer. Again you have the machines you need - give the steel cap a shot, set it up for 001 rock.

I don't recall if the holes are inserts or just tapped aluminum in the housing. I don't like the loading on tapped aluminum holes either.

I don't know if $6000 would cover the 12 bolt, 1350 axles,and the labor to build the diff, shafts,and T/A's. You could always figure the part cost and what ever your labor rate is and see if it works out. I would be looking for someone parting out a 71-79 vette and get all the cores.

Here is an 1980 diff I have and will play around with once I get to it. I have people asking me all the time to build these so I might as well help them out. You will notice these do not have the springs and plates in them like the Eatons. That is for all you nay sayers out there that say you can't build a posi without springs. You will also see the aluminum caps, cross shaft grooves,and rough casting.










To me, the amount of time and money sunk into these is better off in an iron conversion. The weight savings is not that much, this is 65lbs without the cover. A complete iron diff, cover, axles is 100 lbs. A custom built iron will be better then any 80-82 vette Dana - of course that's only my opinion.
Yes 001 crush.
They are straight taped holes in A C4 dana 44 housing Gary.
C3 dana made the same way pretty sure.
I don't see that being too big of a concern.
Main aluminum housing will crack in 2 likely before one of the housing carrier threads fail.
Not as torsion stiff as cast iron or High grade Nodular Iron.

C4 dana 44 Trackloc unit has a pair of Bellville clutch pack springs.
Works like a Diaphragm clutch pressure plate hat does.
Superior to the Eaton style clutch pack preload springs or wave S spring used in other GM differentials.
Have not seen too many burnt out Dana 44 Trac loc units or clutches.
But the clutch pack guides or keys do get torn up in high mileage High torque use.
Keys sometimes broken in 2 or 3 pieces upon inspection during diff teardown.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:57 AM   #11
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Yeah I can't say I'm impressed with those diffs but I'm also tired of the arguements from those that have not had an issue with them. So run stock, run with a steel cap, swap to iron several options to work with.
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Old 05-04-2012, 11:23 PM   #12
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Quote:
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Yeah I can't say I'm impressed with those diffs but I'm also tired of the arguements from those that have not had an issue with them. So run stock, run with a steel cap, swap to iron several options to work with.
C3 dana 44 should have L & R Steel caps in place for performance use I think Gary.

Thinking it over yet.

Nitrous oxide launches with slicks make for near 900ft/lbs or more engine flywheel torque instant & dead hooked up traction.

Any weak leak, it will break.

Not forgiving like a large single turbo, twin turbo, or modern day centrifugal supercharger like a Vortech, Procharger, or Paxton.
They leave the starting line soft with those style power adders.

He will do full on nitrous oxide launches with slicks.
Just as last year.

So.........

Super 10 out.
Super 12 ?

Solid axle 4- link setup will take it for sure built with correct chosen parts, built by myself.
He don't want that.
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Old 05-05-2012, 07:16 AM   #13
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well it's your customer but there is no way in the world I'd use a 80-82 Dana in that application, I just plain would not build it.

For the abuse it will probably see and if he wants to put that kind of money into a car that will never see a resale value near the retrofit cost the 12 bolt is the way to go. Along with the mount fabrication.

Again not what I would recommend for the money but it's not mine.

Good luck with that one.
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Old 05-05-2012, 09:15 PM   #14
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well it's your customer but there is no way in the world I'd use a 80-82 Dana in that application, I just plain would not build it.

For the abuse it will probably see and if he wants to put that kind of money into a car that will never see a resale value near the retrofit cost the 12 bolt is the way to go. Along with the mount fabrication.

Again not what I would recommend for the money but it's not mine.

Good luck with that one.
LOL Gary.

Really just getting your opinion on matters.
I have received them from you.

Drag racers don't worry about resale value of their racing machines.
Only thing that matters is beating your competitor in the lane next to You.
Bragging to your buddies after winning the race is good thing too.

This guy is younger than you me.
Early 30's.
He just wants to win drag races in the 10 second class with his 81 vette.
Don't blame him, I was his age once too.

Are most of your customers Road & Track guys ?
Autocross ?
Restoration & performance street toys ?
Any drag race customers that can say a Super 12 & entire rear suspension built with top notch hardware won't fail in this application ?

BR
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