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Old 11-09-2012, 01:10 PM   #1
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Failure assesment, and the importance of being accurate.

My company is ISO 9000 certified. Part of having that certification is a requirement to impliment a program to accuratly assess our failures and come up with a corrective action based on the failure assesment. We have found that it is absolutly critical to understand completely how the failure occured and to be completey honest with yourself about how the failure occured. It is often easier or more natural to blame someone else or something else than to look closely at what you may have done wrong, but the only way to truly come to a good corrective action, is to correctly identify the problem in the first place.

This is something very important for the republican party to look at after the election. I see way too many republicans pointing to Romney's short commings. I see way too many of them blaming the media, or even the voters themselves. While this may be the knee jerk reaction that comes naturaly, I think it is very important to look at what our party may be or might have been doing wrong. I think it's time to look honestly at what we fail to offer the voter, that makes him think we do not have good solutions to thier problems. And certainly if we are like those who choose to blame the voter....well there is no way to fix the party to solve for that problem. If you believe as some have said that the country is now just full of moochers that want free stuff, then there is not much you can do short of moving out of the country to solve that.

The way I saw the election go, I thought Romney went too far right to win the nomination, to move to a more moderate position to win the general election.
His talk about self deportation hurt him badly in the general election with Hispanics. But at the same time the party has to share some of the blame for turning the hispanic vote against it. You have Governor Brewer In Arizona pushing for extremely onerous laws looking to feret out illegals, that would make life miserable for legal hispanics. Sheriff Joe Arpaio, simply adds more fuel to the fire in his attempts to get famous for his hardline on illegals, which only serves to rub this issue in the face of all hispanic americans.

Romneys choice of Paul Ryan was a good one and carried an air of fiscal responsability, but was then upstaged by Todd Akins rediculous claim that women do not get pregnant in a true rape. This shone a bright light onto Paul Ryan's similar beliefs, and cast a pall over the Romney campaign. This news cycle was a low point in the campaign and only ended realy after Obama's extremely poor showing in the first debate. The issue was then brought up again by Mr. Murdoch, and Romney paid for it.

Of course there were other big problems, like the poor job at the republican convention, especialy with the addition of the personhood amendment plank in the platform, and of course the performance by Clint Eastwood. By the way that performance replaced the prime time airing of the Mitt Romney video, which was extremely well recieved by those who actualy saw it. Too bad it didn't run in prime time.

The issue of gay mariage which used to be a great tool to get the base to the polls also seems to be losing it's power, and again makes the Republican party look like the party of intolerance.

I also think Fox News bears some responsability in the republican failure. They are not allowing us to look truthfully at what ails the party. They only tell us what we want to hear, and that simply reenforces many misconceptions. Fox news should do a better job of telling us the truth wether we like it or not, and the constant personal attacks on Obama are the first place to start. By the time the election came, nothing negative that was said about Obama, was accepted by the majority of voters, because they had already endured 4 years of Birtherism, and attacks on Obama for everything from his association with his pastor and Bill Aires, to Saul Alinsky, who died when Obama was 2 or 3. Many on the right believe that these constant attacks weaken the target but both Bill Clinton and now Barack Obama have proven that these attacks simply provide cover for the target of the attacks and the public just becomes immunized by these small doses so they don't even respond to real problems anymore.
We must put the idea of doing to democrat candidates what was done to Richard Nixon, out of our minds. What happened to Richard Nixon was mostly of his doing and more the result of too much paranoia, than a media witch hunt. We have seen the result of even the most promising scandles end in anger at the republican party more than the scandleous actor. The Monica Lewinski scandle shoud be proof enough of that.

So what corrective action should the party take???? Well that depends on what we finaly come to accept as the reasons for our party's failures. For the most part those corrective actions should come quite naturaly once we actualy expose the true and honest reasons for failure. And if we fail to come to those reasons truthfully and honestly, we the republican party will be the only ones to pay for our self deception.
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:24 PM   #2
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Good thoughts, but unless you're in DC running the party, your thoughts are just that.

If the party moves anymore left, it will be Democrat.
It's already left of where it was 10 and 20 years ago.
That said, I agree, it can't win being any further right either.

The Pub party is screwed no matter what it does.
Moving left alienates the conservative right(who run the party behind the scenes by the way). Moving right alienates a good portion of middle of the road voters.

It also does not help to move left when the Democrats already have the same beliefs and base.

The Pub party needs to reinvent itself. On that I will agree.
The question is, can they do it?
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Old 11-09-2012, 01:37 PM   #3
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Good thoughts, but unless you're in DC running the party, your thoughts are just that.

If the party moves anymore left, it will be Democrat.
It's already left of where it was 10 and 20 years ago.
That said, I agree, it can't win being any further right either.

The Pub party is screwed no matter what it does.
Moving left alienates the conservative right(who run the party behind the scenes by the way). Moving right alienates a good portion of middle of the road voters.

It also does not help to move left when the Democrats already have the same beliefs and base.

The Pub party needs to reinvent itself. On that I will agree.
The question is, can they do it?

I just don't think it's a matter of moving right or left, it's about having good ideas. For instance....the whole issue of abortion in cases of rape, comes form the problem with claiming that life begins at conception. This also causes problems with many forms of birth control. Now years ago the Republican party did not push this issue so hard. They fought against abortion but after Roe Vs Wade they accepted the ruling and went on with life. Then the religious right pushed to make this a central part of the Republican party platform and we have been sheding women voters ever since. Why can't we leave this religious issue out of our party??? Why can't we say that freedom in American means being free from religion as well as free to practice our religion as we see fit???

This is just like the creation vs darwinism argument. Once the issue was basicly put to bed by the majority of people, the religious right came back with inteligent design, because if you believe that the world in billions of years old that conflicts with the Bible. We need to let the Bible be what it is for the people who believe in it, and allow science which is proven and not dependent on faith be what we base our laws on.
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Old 11-09-2012, 02:35 PM   #4
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I just don't think it's a matter of moving right or left, it's about having good ideas. For instance....the whole issue of abortion in cases of rape, comes form the problem with claiming that life begins at conception. This also causes problems with many forms of birth control. Now years ago the Republican party did not push this issue so hard. They fought against abortion but after Roe Vs Wade they accepted the ruling and went on with life. Then the religious right pushed to make this a central part of the Republican party platform and we have been sheding women voters ever since. Why can't we leave this religious issue out of our party??? Why can't we say that freedom in American means being free from religion as well as free to practice our religion as we see fit???

This is just like the creation vs darwinism argument. Once the issue was basicly put to bed by the majority of people, the religious right came back with inteligent design, because if you believe that the world in billions of years old that conflicts with the Bible. We need to let the Bible be what it is for the people who believe in it, and allow science which is proven and not dependent on faith be what we base our laws on.
This is why the two, or three, party system is always in turmoil. Not every belief fits. The parties give us square and round holes, yet we all have triangular blocks. Welcome to America.
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Old 11-11-2012, 11:48 AM   #5
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Machine....well written...but for the most part, you're trying to keep a match lit in a hurricane.
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Old 11-11-2012, 04:09 PM   #6
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This is just like the creation vs darwinism argument. Once the issue was basicly put to bed by the majority of people, the religious right came back with inteligent design, because if you believe that the world in billions of years old that conflicts with the Bible. We need to let the Bible be what it is for the people who believe in it, and allow science which is proven and not dependent on faith be what we base our laws on.
Actually, the science is hardly proven on evolution. The fossil record isn't there and it's not happening today. This was a case of mob rule. Taking an unsettled argument and calling it early. Every year the case for evolution get's weaker. Looking around the world and finding out the truths will get us a better answer, but it wasn't a man in the clouds nor was it monkey's rubbing their tails off.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 11-11-2012, 04:39 PM   #7
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nor was it monkey's rubbing their tails off.
Maybe it was a monkey walking on its knuckles.

BTW...for those of you who don't know it...the Great Apes have no tails.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:00 AM   #8
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Actually, the science is hardly proven on evolution. The fossil record isn't there and it's not happening today. This was a case of mob rule. Taking an unsettled argument and calling it early. Every year the case for evolution get's weaker. Looking around the world and finding out the truths will get us a better answer, but it wasn't a man in the clouds nor was it monkey's rubbing their tails off.
Evolution is used everyday by animal breaders, horticulturalists, and epidemiologists. It is proven science. The fact that we cannot find an unbroken chain of primate fossils over billions of years means nothing, except that is is hard to find the fossil of a bone that was burried millions of years ago. Man's genitic code only varies by 4% from chimps. And quite to the contrary of what you claim, every year the case for evolution gets stronger and stronger while the religious zealots try to confuse the issue with thier flawed logic.
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Old 11-12-2012, 08:59 AM   #9
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I agree with the general theme of your post. I think you put too much emphasis on FOX. Yes, they lean right, but their coverage is still more to the center than MSNBC, and MSNBC's far left coveraged didn't hurt Obama. Polarized media is just a fact of life for both sides, and the Dems are much more the recipient of slanted news than the Pubs are. I also think you put too much emphasis on social issues and religion. None of those things is nearly as important as race in our elections. African-Americans always have and always will fall almost completely as a group for the Dems. But you are spot on that the GOP made a huge mistake in not continuing to be reasonable toward Hispanics the way George Bush did. The future of the GOP will depend on their willingness and ability to increase their standing with Hispanics. I personally think the biggest hurdle for the GOP in expanding their tent is the Tea Party, and there isn't a good solution for that. The GOP just has a conundrum: they have to have the Tea Party votes, but having the Tea Party in their tent almost ensures they won't win a big national election. Don't blame the GOP for that. They can't control it. Best hope for GOP in the short run? A Marco Rubio candidacy mixed with some real acceptable solutions for the illegal immigration problem.
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Old 11-12-2012, 09:40 AM   #10
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I agree with the general theme of your post. I think you put too much emphasis on FOX. Yes, they lean right, but their coverage is still more to the center than MSNBC, and MSNBC's far left coveraged didn't hurt Obama. Polarized media is just a fact of life for both sides, and the Dems are much more the recipient of slanted news than the Pubs are. I also think you put too much emphasis on social issues and religion. None of those things is nearly as important as race in our elections. African-Americans always have and always will fall almost completely as a group for the Dems. But you are spot on that the GOP made a huge mistake in not continuing to be reasonable toward Hispanics the way George Bush did. The future of the GOP will depend on their willingness and ability to increase their standing with Hispanics. I personally think the biggest hurdle for the GOP in expanding their tent is the Tea Party, and there isn't a good solution for that. The GOP just has a conundrum: they have to have the Tea Party votes, but having the Tea Party in their tent almost ensures they won't win a big national election. Don't blame the GOP for that. They can't control it. Best hope for GOP in the short run? A Marco Rubio candidacy mixed with some real acceptable solutions for the illegal immigration problem.
Again to the point of this thread, Tex, is the need to realisticly look at the causes for the failure.

So lets look at Fox news. Fox news broke a number of stories durring the campaign about Obama. You had the story of Obama 7 years ago speaking to the preachers. It was lauded as a game changer, and a win for Romney, in the Fox news bubble, and many of the people here reposted the story and pushed it as another great gotcha. But in the real world, people looked at it as just another old story that tried to paint Obama as an "other". Fox has been doing this so long that no-one in the real world pays attemtion to this stuff anymore.

What Fox news lives on and markets itself to, is people who don't want to hear the real news. They want to hear what they want to hear, and that has nothing to do with truth. They want to see a "D" next to the republicans name that has been caught in a scandle, because they just don't want to believe that their side is human, and has human frailties. They want to hear that polls are just wrong about Obama's chances to win, because the truth is just too unpaletable.

But when you live in a world of "false truth", you do not have the correct facts to judge situations correctly. While you think Fox is simply balancing out the MSNBCs of the world, you allow that balance to extend to CBS and the New York Times and other well respected news groups that would never allow their reputations to be diminished by reporting news in any way but in the tradition of excelence and accuracy. You allow yourself to believe that there are thier facts and your facts, as if facts had a side. A fact can only be the truth of an issue, and to imply that there are two possible contradicting facts to an issue is just false.

Tex, the problem with Fox is that they are not in the news business, they are in the propaganda business. Propaganda has a political purpose. While news may have political impacts, the political impact should not guide the news story. That is what Fox does, it tries to get a political outcome from it's story. It takes old news that has no bearing on curent issues, and puts it out as an important news item, and that is not news it is propaganda.

So lets look at Fox in our failure assesment. Does Fox news actualy deliver good factual accurate news, that helps republicans understand what is going on in our country, in politics, and the world. I would say that it does not, and that is a handicap for republicans who only get their news from Fox. It gives them false feelings of good things from the republican party and false feelings of wrong from the democratic party. This makes them poorly able to force corrections and correct behavior from the candidates they might support. It makes the party pick much more narrow minded people as our candidates which in turn makes our party less appealing to real world voters. Truth is the only way we can make the accurate judgements of our candidates and Fox does us no favors when hiding poor behaviors or unpopular views from it's viewers. It simply allows weak candidates to rise to the top when without Fox news those candidates would be weeded out much sooner, than when they are running for the republican nomination for president of the United States. And that weakens the party.
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Old 11-12-2012, 10:39 AM   #11
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Again to the point of this thread, Tex, is the need to realisticly look at the causes for the failure.

So lets look at Fox news. Fox news broke a number of stories durring the campaign about Obama. You had the story of Obama 7 years ago speaking to the preachers. It was lauded as a game changer, and a win for Romney, in the Fox news bubble, and many of the people here reposted the story and pushed it as another great gotcha. But in the real world, people looked at it as just another old story that tried to paint Obama as an "other". Fox has been doing this so long that no-one in the real world pays attemtion to this stuff anymore.

What Fox news lives on and markets itself to, is people who don't want to hear the real news. They want to hear what they want to hear, and that has nothing to do with truth. They want to see a "D" next to the republicans name that has been caught in a scandle, because they just don't want to believe that their side is human, and has human frailties. They want to hear that polls are just wrong about Obama's chances to win, because the truth is just too unpaletable.

But when you live in a world of "false truth", you do not have the correct facts to judge situations correctly. While you think Fox is simply balancing out the MSNBCs of the world, you allow that balance to extend to CBS and the New York Times and other well respected news groups that would never allow their reputations to be diminished by reporting news in any way but in the tradition of excelence and accuracy. You allow yourself to believe that there are thier facts and your facts, as if facts had a side. A fact can only be the truth of an issue, and to imply that there are two possible contradicting facts to an issue is just false.

Tex, the problem with Fox is that they are not in the news business, they are in the propaganda business. Propaganda has a political purpose. While news may have political impacts, the political impact should not guide the news story. That is what Fox does, it tries to get a political outcome from it's story. It takes old news that has no bearing on curent issues, and puts it out as an important news item, and that is not news it is propaganda.

So lets look at Fox in our failure assesment. Does Fox news actualy deliver good factual accurate news, that helps republicans understand what is going on in our country, in politics, and the world. I would say that it does not, and that is a handicap for republicans who only get their news from Fox. It gives them false feelings of good things from the republican party and false feelings of wrong from the democratic party. This makes them poorly able to force corrections and correct behavior from the candidates they might support. It makes the party pick much more narrow minded people as our candidates which in turn makes our party less appealing to real world voters. Truth is the only way we can make the accurate judgements of our candidates and Fox does us no favors when hiding poor behaviors or unpopular views from it's viewers. It simply allows weak candidates to rise to the top when without Fox news those candidates would be weeded out much sooner, than when they are running for the republican nomination for president of the United States. And that weakens the party.
Well, that knife cuts both ways. Was FOX pushing the Benghazi scandal inordinately, or was MSNBC, The New York Times and all of the others purposely ignoring it in order to help Obama's chances? I believe it was the latter. You talk about the stories that FOX pushes, but you don't mention that they are often very important stories that normal journalists would jump on, but the other mainstream guys won't do their job. To point at FOX and act like they are the problem here is very short sighted IMO. I don't think FOX is doing the hiding. It is all the other guys hiding the warts on the Obama adminstration.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:03 AM   #12
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Well, that knife cuts both ways. Was FOX pushing the Benghazi scandal inordinately, or was MSNBC, The New York Times and all of the others purposely ignoring it in order to help Obama's chances? I believe it was the latter. You talk about the stories that FOX pushes, but you don't mention that they are often very important stories that normal journalists would jump on, but the other mainstream guys won't do their job. To point at FOX and act like they are the problem here is very short sighted IMO. I don't think FOX is doing the hiding. It is all the other guys hiding the warts on the Obama adminstration.
com'on tex

Benghazi is a witchunt against obama over 2 seals.


compared to 12 years of war and deaths of our brothers and children.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:25 AM   #13
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Well, that knife cuts both ways. Was FOX pushing the Benghazi scandal inordinately, or was MSNBC, The New York Times and all of the others purposely ignoring it in order to help Obama's chances? I believe it was the latter. You talk about the stories that FOX pushes, but you don't mention that they are often very important stories that normal journalists would jump on, but the other mainstream guys won't do their job. To point at FOX and act like they are the problem here is very short sighted IMO. I don't think FOX is doing the hiding. It is all the other guys hiding the warts on the Obama adminstration.
I thought my other post was getting to long so I didn't deal with Bengazi, but that is another perfect example. Fox made this out to be the biggest story of all time. they demanded to know right away what happened. It made Romney jump out way too early to comment on issues that are usualy not part of politics. The main point of Fox news's coverage was that this was a terrorist attack. Why that is such a big deal is a mystery to all unless you see it as a way to cover GW Bush for the 911 attack and there is hardly a comparison. There are all sorts of changing accounts about what happened and when the final report is filed by the powers that be I think we will all see this as not nearly the story Fox built it up to be. But the fact that you and so many republicans looked at this as such an important story, while polls showed that nobody else saw it as such, just makes my case even more clear. Fox does the republican party no good, by trying to push their political adgenda.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:44 AM   #14
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Best hope for GOP in the short run? A Marco Rubio candidacy mixed with some real acceptable solutions for the illegal immigration problem.
There's been a lot of talk about Rubio...and we've still got 4 years (well...maybe 2, considering how early campaigning begins) until it matters.

I think the Republicans need to be careful with the perception of things. Obviously, Republicans had a problem getting the Hispanic vote. Now you trot out Rubio (although yes, I know he has been a "top player" for a while longer) and say "LOOK, we have a Hispanic guy!!" They have to do better than that. Actions speak louder than words. So, REAL efforts in fixing the immigration problem will help tremendously.
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Old 11-12-2012, 11:45 AM   #15
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I thought my other post was getting to long so I didn't deal with Bengazi, but that is another perfect example. Fox made this out to be the biggest story of all time. they demanded to know right away what happened. It made Romney jump out way too early to comment on issues that are usualy not part of politics. The main point of Fox news's coverage was that this was a terrorist attack. Why that is such a big deal is a mystery to all unless you see it as a way to cover GW Bush for the 911 attack and there is hardly a comparison. There are all sorts of changing accounts about what happened and when the final report is filed by the powers that be I think we will all see this as not nearly the story Fox built it up to be. But the fact that you and so many republicans looked at this as such an important story, while polls showed that nobody else saw it as such, just makes my case even more clear. Fox does the republican party no good, by trying to push their political adgenda.
Well, first of all, I never thought Benghazi was a winner as a campaign issue. But there was a good reason FOX kept at it. Obama had made a plank of his platform that he had killed Bin Laden, that Al Qaeda was on the run and that as a result we were safer because of him. When Benghazi happened, it was pretty clear within a few days that the attack was a terrorist attack and that the Obama administration, with the compliance of the media pretended that it was a spontaneous action. Not a big deal unless you are campaigning against Obama, and it is clear that one of his bragging points is not true. Why should he and his compatriots at the New York Times be allowed to run the clock out on the truth? FOX tried to make sure that the media at least gave the attack a truthful look before the election. It didn't work. But I have already said, now that the election is over, I think those same complicit "journalists" will turn their attention and blame game on members of the Obama administration because it won't hurt him, and it will sell papers.
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