No more leaf-springs? - Page 2 - Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums
 
 
Go Back   Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums > C7 Corvette Forums > C7 Corvette - Facts | Info | Rumors
Register Forums Garage Garage Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowInsurance

Notices

C7 Corvette - Facts | Info | Rumors The first C7 Corvette info is rolling in...

Shops/Tuners
Custom Image Corvettes
A&A Corvette
Corvette tuner

Interior
Corvette aftermarket products

Insurance

Parts & Products
Race Ramps
Edelbrock
ATI/Procharger
Corvetteguys.com
Melrose Motorsports
Parts Taxi
Airaid
Mid America Motorworks
Pfadt Racing
Madvette Motorsports
Hi-tech Custom Concepts
Corvette aftermarket products
Corvette Garage
Corvette Parts and Accessories
Corvette Car Care Products
Corvette HID
Mid America Motoroworks

Tracks/Schools
Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving
Corvette driving school

Wheels/Tires
Cray Wheels

Services
BADWERKS.com
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-04-2012, 12:22 PM   #16
Longtimer
DC Pit Crew Boss
 
Longtimer's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,015
Member #3668
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: So Cal

My Corvette(s)
'07 Z51 6Mn NCM delivery, '79 L82 4 sp gymk - Gone '87 Z52 4+3, 76 L-82 4 spd

Thanks: 283
Thanked 163 Times in 126 Posts
Guys, there's not even a firm definition of what qualifies as a "Sports Car." Some insist that a v6 mustang and a Subaru Impreza WRX sedan are sports cars. Where is the line drawn?

If enthusiasts can not agree on the most basic of descriptors for performance vehicles, there is almost no chance in agreeing on the definition of the subcategories of "sports cars."

There is an element of subjectivity in these terms that will probably never be eliminated. JMHO
Longtimer is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
'07:bought from a former sponsor, Z06 wheels and Vararam from former sponsors, Various accessories from Corvette Central and Corvette America. B&B Fusions with Corsa X pipe. Shine from Adam's
'87: refurbished all interior with parts from Corv Central '79: Interior refurb = Corvette America, and Corvette Central, T1Rs, Foose Legends
DC Sponsors
________________________________________ ________

Corvette ownership is like owning your own fountain of youth ... and we get a sip from it each time the signal turns green. Watching for C8 fixes & improvements
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 12-04-2012, 12:37 PM   #17
Chris Draper
DC Crew
 
Chris Draper's Avatar
 
Posts: 2,766
Member #3332
Member since: Oct 2003
Location: Gilbert, AZ

Thanks: 21
Thanked 189 Times in 104 Posts
Can anyone show me a real cost comparison between the leafs and coils?

I fail to imagine that leafs can cost more. Please prove me wrong.
Chris Draper is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Corvette Info Center http://corvette-info.tripod.com
Corvette Racing History http://corvette-racing.tripod.com
Corvette Concepts History http://corvette-concepts.tripod.com
Corvette Info Center Facebook Page http://www.facebook.com/corvetteinfocenter
Old 12-04-2012, 12:40 PM   #18
Andonis
DC Crew
 
Posts: 382
Member #932
Member since: May 2003
Location: Hungary

Thanks: 24
Thanked 52 Times in 33 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Longtimer View Post
Guys, there's not even a firm definition of what qualifies as a "Sports Car." Some insist that a v6 mustang and a Subaru Impreza WRX sedan are sports cars. Where is the line drawn?

If enthusiasts can not agree on the most basic of descriptors for performance vehicles, there is almost no chance in agreeing on the definition of the subcategories of "sports cars."

There is an element of subjectivity in these terms that will probably never be eliminated. JMHO

true but know what i meant
Andonis is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2012, 04:43 PM   #19
spd98
DC Crew
 
spd98's Avatar
 
Posts: 598
Member #4658
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Thanks: 10
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Draper View Post
Can anyone show me a real cost comparison between the leafs and coils?

I fail to imagine that leafs can cost more. Please prove me wrong.
I might be able to come up with something lol.


I can tell you the manufacturing process of a steel spring is much much simpler and can be done many more places than the gfe springs. The biggest benifit isn't cost, it's the amount of weight reduced combined with the allowable stress on the gfe spring.

The weight reduction between a steel leaf and a gfe leaf is about 65-70%. They typically can handle more than 50% more stress as well. One of the most unique and least talked about attributes to gfe springs is the increase in natural frequency. In similar applications they can have a natural frequency about 2x as high as steel. The good thing about this is that you can use less damping and not have to worry about vibration issues.

Keep in mind I'm talking in generalities about the springs in automotive applications but not about Corvette specifically.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the technology in the trucks at some point. Primarily due to the weight reduction needed to enhance MPG. They are already in use in some vans and commercial bus applications.

There are also some other emerging technologies out there that could be neat. There are now better ways to manufacture carbon reinforced coil springs.
spd98 is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2012, 04:52 PM   #20
Longtimer
DC Pit Crew Boss
 
Longtimer's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,015
Member #3668
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: So Cal

My Corvette(s)
'07 Z51 6Mn NCM delivery, '79 L82 4 sp gymk - Gone '87 Z52 4+3, 76 L-82 4 spd

Thanks: 283
Thanked 163 Times in 126 Posts
Personnally, I don't really feel that strongly about the FG vs. coilover wars. I just look at the results, which have been pretty good for corvette.

BTW, didn't someone mention that the FG expected life is much longer than coilovers?

Vettes tend to to have long lives. Perhaps this is weighed into the FG decision.
Longtimer is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
'07:bought from a former sponsor, Z06 wheels and Vararam from former sponsors, Various accessories from Corvette Central and Corvette America. B&B Fusions with Corsa X pipe. Shine from Adam's
'87: refurbished all interior with parts from Corv Central '79: Interior refurb = Corvette America, and Corvette Central, T1Rs, Foose Legends
DC Sponsors
________________________________________ ________

Corvette ownership is like owning your own fountain of youth ... and we get a sip from it each time the signal turns green. Watching for C8 fixes & improvements
Old 12-04-2012, 04:58 PM   #21
sixpeedreams
DC Crew
 
sixpeedreams's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,007
Member #17449
Member since: Sep 2004
Location: Milwaukee USA

My Corvette(s)
'80 & '95 Z28's (poor man's Vettes)

Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blast View Post
Hm, without discussing the technical merits of either solution, I have to ask :

If W16s are better (Veyron), why don't everybody use them?

If Pushrod engines are better, why don't everybody use them?

If rear-rear cars (Porsche) are better, why aren't all cars rear-rear?

If Mid-rear are better (Lambo), why aren't all cars ..
how?

// Stefan
I didn't ask why everyone doesn't use leafs, I asked why NO ONE DOES. That's a different and I think legitimate question.

Last edited by sixpeedreams; 12-04-2012 at 05:37 PM.
sixpeedreams is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
You can crack your finger, but don't finger your crack.
Old 12-04-2012, 05:13 PM   #22
sixpeedreams
DC Crew
 
sixpeedreams's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,007
Member #17449
Member since: Sep 2004
Location: Milwaukee USA

My Corvette(s)
'80 & '95 Z28's (poor man's Vettes)

Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
The leaf springs are a great idea. "Just because nobody else" is a pitiful excuse for an argument. There are no contenders that match the Corvette in it's performance for it's price range period.

If you look at the pic it seems to share the same attachment area as the sway bar now.
Not making an argument. Asking why GM made the very deliberate a-typical design choice of using leafs when NO ONE else does, including their own C6-R racecar. Its a curious feature of the road-going Corvette and one that I've heard criticized many times.
sixpeedreams is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
You can crack your finger, but don't finger your crack.
Old 12-04-2012, 05:19 PM   #23
sixpeedreams
DC Crew
 
sixpeedreams's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,007
Member #17449
Member since: Sep 2004
Location: Milwaukee USA

My Corvette(s)
'80 & '95 Z28's (poor man's Vettes)

Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
I would also like to point out that a multi-layer fiber reinforced leaf is more advanced technology than a simple steel coil.
I would assume that most of us here prefer the OHV SBC for the Corvette instead of an OHC engine -- because OHV is smaller, lighter, torqyer, responsive, powerful, reliable, and sounds incredible. But I've never heard that FG leafs are superior in performance to coil-over shocks.

Bottom line: In its own interest GM should demonstrate why FG leafs are better and end the debate for its customers and potential buyers.
sixpeedreams is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
You can crack your finger, but don't finger your crack.
Old 12-04-2012, 11:24 PM   #24
Blast
DC Crew
 
Posts: 179
Member #5275
Member since: Dec 2003
Location: Stockholm/Sweden

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpeedreams View Post
I didn't ask why everyone doesn't use leafs, I asked why NO ONE DOES. That's a different and I think legitimate question.
Ok, let me rephrase it then:

If W16s are better (Veyron), why does noone else do it?

If rear-rear cars (Porsche) are better, why does noone else do it?

The question is the same, the wording is simply a little different.

// Stefan
Blast is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-04-2012, 11:27 PM   #25
Blast
DC Crew
 
Posts: 179
Member #5275
Member since: Dec 2003
Location: Stockholm/Sweden

Thanks: 4
Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpeedreams View Post
I would assume that most of us here prefer the OHV SBC for the Corvette instead of an OHC engine -- because OHV is smaller, lighter, torqyer, responsive, powerful, reliable, and sounds incredible. But I've never heard that FG leafs are superior in performance to coil-over shocks.

Bottom line: In its own interest GM should demonstrate why FG leafs are better and end the debate for its customers and potential buyers.
For a while the fastest mass produced car around the Nordschleife was the ZR-1 using leafs.

What other demonstration do you need?

You're looking at one specific thing, I'm looking at the whole package.

// Stefan
Blast is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 05:58 AM   #26
spd98
DC Crew
 
spd98's Avatar
 
Posts: 598
Member #4658
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Thanks: 10
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpeedreams View Post
I would assume that most of us here prefer the OHV SBC for the Corvette instead of an OHC engine -- because OHV is smaller, lighter, torqyer, responsive, powerful, reliable, and sounds incredible. But I've never heard that FG leafs are superior in performance to coil-over shocks.

Bottom line: In its own interest GM should demonstrate why FG leafs are better and end the debate for its customers and potential buyers.
You comparison is flawed. Your talking about "coil over shocks" verses the gfc leaves. One is a spring and the other is a spring and damper as a single component.

GM shouldn't care or spend money on any of this. I don't hink 99% of buyers care. Most just want the car and the rest just want it to perform. I don't think anyone has not purchased because of the type of spring used.

BTW virtually every car on the road has a tranverse leaf spring on it. Ever heard of a swaybar?
spd98 is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 06:28 AM   #27
culver
DC Crew
 
Posts: 22
Member #58285
Member since: Mar 2007
Location: USA

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Ah, the old leaf debate...

OK, a couple of things here.
1. I don't think GM would consider the use of the leaf spring to be part of the core of what makes the car a Corvette. Lose the V8 for say a turbo V6 and I would say that radically changes the Corvette. Lose the leaf and most wouldn't notice. I mean how often do you hear someone bitch about the leaf spring in the rear but fail to mention the leaf spring under the nose?

2. With the C4 the leaf setup was picked because it was very innovative AND solved some packaging issues. The C5 design team did not start off with the intent of keeping the leaf spring. It is after all more expensive than a set of coils (more on that later). When it came time to package a spring into the tight confines of the chassis GM felt normal production car coils (not the highly stressed aftermarket ones that likely wouldn't last the life of the car without some sag or a reduction in suspension articulation) couldn't do the job. They simply didn't have the space to package the length of spring wire needed to do the job. The leaf spring, which has NO inherent disadvantages as a spring, just simply fit better. Mind you GM was considering using pushrods and bell cranks with coils springs. They were clearly concerned about packaging.

3. The C7 is an evolution of the C5 chassis so it's not surprising that the design choices that were valid then are valid now.

4. Cost. The fiberglass spring is significantly more expensive to make. Period. Bosch recently showed a prototype economy car suspension using the fiberglass leaf. They said the leaf was more expensive than coils. The only way it made sense for an economy car was by making the leaf a control arm as well AND using the dual pivot mount, like the Corvette, to act as a sway bar to save the cost of adding a sway bar. The reason why the leaf spring setup under the Chevy truck costs less than the coils under the Tahoe is NOT because the leaf spring costs less than the coils. It costs a lot more. It's because the leaf spring does lots of jobs at once. The 2 leaf springs replace 5 links + 2 coils. The same is true in the Bosch setup. That is NOT true of the Corvette. Finally, the cost argument completely fails when you ask a simple question, if the leaf was cheaper then why does GM only use it on the expensive cars? GM used it on the W-body cars which were more upscale than say the J-body cars. They use it on the Corvette but not the Cobalt. Somewhere I think on this site a manufacture of both coil and FGS posted in reply to a thread of mine confirming the manufacturing cost difference.

5. Others have used it. It's not commonly used due to the added cost and because it's real advantage is packaging, not performance (though it has no performance loss). The packaging of other cars is different and thus their solutions are different. So far Mercedes, Smart, Volvo and VW have all used he design. Ford, Honda and Porsche all have patents on similar designs.

6. What works on race cars doesn't always work on road cars. The C6-R team needs custom springs for the cars. They couldn't use the stock springs any more than a racing 911 would use the car's stock springs. Since the fiberglass springs are molded a new spring would be VERY expensive to tool up while coil race springs are all but interchangeable between various car makes as most are using the same dampers. I've known Formula Ford owners using ex Indy car shocks. Just change the valving and the spring rate and you are good to go. Race springs and dampers are largely interchangeable thus the C6-R team will use what the market provides. Also they can use highly stressed race springs which would again either limit travel or sag after years of use. Most high end race cars use torsion bar springs these days. Would we think it's cool if GM used torsion bars like a '78 Chevy Van (or the Audi LMP cars)? Most high end race cars use third spring setups. I don't hear anyone begging for something like that just because a race car uses it. Oh, those torsion bar setups also mean most high end race cars aren't using coil overs.

As Carroll Smith said, cost aside, the FGS is an ideal road car spring because it's lighter and can be used to provide more inherent roll resistance than a traditional set of coil springs. It has NO inherent performance disadvantage. The down sides are cost and that the small reduction in weight can be recaptured elsewhere in the car for less money thus the cost benefit isn't that great unless you are stuck with respect to packaging.

I suspect the biggest issue with the Corvette suspension has always been the dampers. Look at the gain GM sees when using the mag shocks. OK, time to go.
culver is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to culver For This Useful Post:
Longtimer (12-05-2012), spd98 (12-05-2012), stinger430 (12-05-2012)
Old 12-05-2012, 01:08 PM   #28
spd98
DC Crew
 
spd98's Avatar
 
Posts: 598
Member #4658
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: Atlanta, Ga

Thanks: 10
Thanked 34 Times in 31 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by culver View Post
Ah, the old leaf debate...

OK, a couple of things here.
1. I don't think GM would consider the use of the leaf spring to be part of the core of what makes the car a Corvette. Lose the V8 for say a turbo V6 and I would say that radically changes the Corvette. Lose the leaf and most wouldn't notice. I mean how often do you hear someone bitch about the leaf spring in the rear but fail to mention the leaf spring under the nose?

2. With the C4 the leaf setup was picked because it was very innovative AND solved some packaging issues. The C5 design team did not start off with the intent of keeping the leaf spring. It is after all more expensive than a set of coils (more on that later). When it came time to package a spring into the tight confines of the chassis GM felt normal production car coils (not the highly stressed aftermarket ones that likely wouldn't last the life of the car without some sag or a reduction in suspension articulation) couldn't do the job. They simply didn't have the space to package the length of spring wire needed to do the job. The leaf spring, which has NO inherent disadvantages as a spring, just simply fit better. Mind you GM was considering using pushrods and bell cranks with coils springs. They were clearly concerned about packaging.

3. The C7 is an evolution of the C5 chassis so it's not surprising that the design choices that were valid then are valid now.

4. Cost. The fiberglass spring is significantly more expensive to make. Period. Bosch recently showed a prototype economy car suspension using the fiberglass leaf. They said the leaf was more expensive than coils. The only way it made sense for an economy car was by making the leaf a control arm as well AND using the dual pivot mount, like the Corvette, to act as a sway bar to save the cost of adding a sway bar. The reason why the leaf spring setup under the Chevy truck costs less than the coils under the Tahoe is NOT because the leaf spring costs less than the coils. It costs a lot more. It's because the leaf spring does lots of jobs at once. The 2 leaf springs replace 5 links + 2 coils. The same is true in the Bosch setup. That is NOT true of the Corvette. Finally, the cost argument completely fails when you ask a simple question, if the leaf was cheaper then why does GM only use it on the expensive cars? GM used it on the W-body cars which were more upscale than say the J-body cars. They use it on the Corvette but not the Cobalt. Somewhere I think on this site a manufacture of both coil and FGS posted in reply to a thread of mine confirming the manufacturing cost difference.

5. Others have used it. It's not commonly used due to the added cost and because it's real advantage is packaging, not performance (though it has no performance loss). The packaging of other cars is different and thus their solutions are different. So far Mercedes, Smart, Volvo and VW have all used he design. Ford, Honda and Porsche all have patents on similar designs.

6. What works on race cars doesn't always work on road cars. The C6-R team needs custom springs for the cars. They couldn't use the stock springs any more than a racing 911 would use the car's stock springs. Since the fiberglass springs are molded a new spring would be VERY expensive to tool up while coil race springs are all but interchangeable between various car makes as most are using the same dampers. I've known Formula Ford owners using ex Indy car shocks. Just change the valving and the spring rate and you are good to go. Race springs and dampers are largely interchangeable thus the C6-R team will use what the market provides. Also they can use highly stressed race springs which would again either limit travel or sag after years of use. Most high end race cars use torsion bar springs these days. Would we think it's cool if GM used torsion bars like a '78 Chevy Van (or the Audi LMP cars)? Most high end race cars use third spring setups. I don't hear anyone begging for something like that just because a race car uses it. Oh, those torsion bar setups also mean most high end race cars aren't using coil overs.

As Carroll Smith said, cost aside, the FGS is an ideal road car spring because it's lighter and can be used to provide more inherent roll resistance than a traditional set of coil springs. It has NO inherent performance disadvantage. The down sides are cost and that the small reduction in weight can be recaptured elsewhere in the car for less money thus the cost benefit isn't that great unless you are stuck with respect to packaging.

I suspect the biggest issue with the Corvette suspension has always been the dampers. Look at the gain GM sees when using the mag shocks. OK, time to go.
There is a TON of truth in this. Though I suspect dampers are one of the problems they are not the only problem. Suspension dynamics are complex, there are some "real" measures of performance and a lot of just "feel".

Spring rates can be constant or variable by design (just like the dampers). Then you have to factor in geomerty. As the geometrey of the suspension changes through it's travel, so do the forces applied to the springs and dampers.Then you also have to realize the development guy's are also having to hit a bunch of targets (weight, cost, ride quality, handling) and some of them are subjective.

If you just want a car thats easy to control without electronics I would suggest something longer and heavier than the Corvette lol. It's really poised on a knife edge in the handling department. It's powerful, light, and fairly short in the wheelbase department.
spd98 is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 12-05-2012, 02:15 PM   #29
Longtimer
DC Pit Crew Boss
 
Longtimer's Avatar
 
Posts: 9,015
Member #3668
Member since: Nov 2003
Location: So Cal

My Corvette(s)
'07 Z51 6Mn NCM delivery, '79 L82 4 sp gymk - Gone '87 Z52 4+3, 76 L-82 4 spd

Thanks: 283
Thanked 163 Times in 126 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by spd98 View Post
It's powerful, light, and fairly short in the wheelbase department.
The wheel base will, at least partly, be addressed in the C7. I think it will grow about 3 inches.
Longtimer is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
'07:bought from a former sponsor, Z06 wheels and Vararam from former sponsors, Various accessories from Corvette Central and Corvette America. B&B Fusions with Corsa X pipe. Shine from Adam's
'87: refurbished all interior with parts from Corv Central '79: Interior refurb = Corvette America, and Corvette Central, T1Rs, Foose Legends
DC Sponsors
________________________________________ ________

Corvette ownership is like owning your own fountain of youth ... and we get a sip from it each time the signal turns green. Watching for C8 fixes & improvements
Old 12-05-2012, 08:09 PM   #30
sixpeedreams
DC Crew
 
sixpeedreams's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,007
Member #17449
Member since: Sep 2004
Location: Milwaukee USA

My Corvette(s)
'80 & '95 Z28's (poor man's Vettes)

Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 14 Posts
ok so we are saying that 2 FG leafs weigh less than 4 steel coils would on the Corvette. I don't necessarily disagree with that but I'd like to see a source of that information because FG is not that light and those leafs aren't that small. but that would be one good reason for GM to favor FG leafs.

And aftermarket coil-over shocks, like Pfadt, will either suffer from reduced overall travel or premature sagging. I'd like to hear what Pfadt would say about that. Because that would be another good reason to use FG leafs for this application.

And apparently there are no performance disadvantages with FG leafs. So can designers alter/control the variable-rate characteristics of FG leafs as broadly and effectively as they can coils? Or does using a FG leaf somewhat limit the designer's flexibility in this area? I really don't have a clue on that.

The explanation given about why the C-6R doesn't use FG leafs seems very plausible to me and I thank the person for explaining that.

Someone else said that GM shouldn't spend any time/money explaining why they chose FG leafs. I disagree with that assertion if GM wants to promote the image and sales of the Corvette. They spend a lot of time and money highlighting the Corvette's positive attributes. And if FG leafs are the right choice its one more positive attribute to tout. Maybe they have touted it but i haven't noted it.

But really, I've just been critical and curious about the FG leafs for a long time because I'm a Corvette fan and have seen the car get repeatedly dissed for this feature (although possibly without merit). I also find well-designed products very desirable. And I'm very happy to find that FG leafs may have performance virtues and aren't a cost-cutting measure. Like most on this board i love Corvettes regardless of their springs but always want it to be the best it can be.

Having said all that I wonder if TI coils wouldn't resolve the previously-stated issues with coils and be even better than FG leafs for a high-dollar model like the ZR1. TI coils, which are used in racing, are of course much lighter than steel, but they are also thinner, have greater travel, and have greatly reduced sag over time.
sixpeedreams is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
You can crack your finger, but don't finger your crack.
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (12 CHARACTERS MAXIMUM), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:21 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
2003-2011, DigitalCorvettes.com - All Rights Reserved