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Old 12-10-2012, 08:39 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by XQIZT View Post
Tex...and all others that do the "Bush v. Obama" spending comparison...you are using the benefit of hindsight.

AT THE TIME Bush was president, his spending/debt increase was the greatest we as a country had ever seen. No one had ANY idea what the next president (now Obama) would have done. The point people are trying to make is that no "conservatives" pitched a bitch about the THEN most reckless spending, so it seems disingenuous to throw a temper tantrum NOW (even though admittedly, Obama has gone to new levels).

In otherwords, it seems like the trigger to start worrying/complaining about spending was whether a (D) or an (R) followed the president's name.

excelent point.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:00 AM   #47
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Tex this does not show where Obama has been spending, it only shows that our tax reciepts do not equal our expenses, so we have a deficit.

Again as we have agreed, Obama cannot spend a single dime that has not been approved by congress, and he cannot stop spending without the approval of congress.

You see you guys all look at this as if the US government was just another citizen of the country. If a citizen spent all this money without having money comming in he would indeed be in real trouble, but the US government is not just another citizen. The US government is the entity that has to help us all out in times of economic hardship. It has a commitment to us all regardless of income. In bad recesions like the one we went through and are still feeling, tax reciepts plumet, as economic activity plumets. If the government at a time of low tax reciepts due to a bad economy simply stopped spending,(by not paying it's obligations to us) the economy would spiral into a depression, and we would all suffer horribly. If instead in a time of recession the government borrows and spends the economy will not spiral into depression, but will begin to grow as confidence that the economy will not continue to shrink grows. This is what has happened since Obama took office. In the worst recession since the great depression, which could easily have become a depression, the government spent. Now to be clear, it was both parties who did this. Bush did TARP. Obama got the american jobs act. Most economists believe that if they had made those stimulas programs bigger we would be completely recovered by now, but that does have to be weighed against future growth which could be hurt by debt.

So we see that we went through a very bad recession. Our tax reciepts had already been compromised by the Bush tax cuts so that under Bush, even in very good times we were still running huge deficits. So it only stands to reason that with those same tax rates, and a severly slowed economy, those deficits would grow exponentialy, due to lower economic activity, and even lower tax reciepts. Thus we get the ever growing deficits and debt.

If we can get the economy growing again at very good rates then the deficits will shrink. If we then (once the economy is doing very well) start seriuosly cutting government spending, we can reduce our debt. This is what happened with Clinton, But instead of giving us our taxes back, we should use those surplusses to pay off our debt. That is what was not done by Bush.
The president proposes a budget which is approved or not by congress. Obama has never even gotten a single Democrat to vote for his budgets. The reason is that his budgets are not serious. How can anyone defend a president sending budgets to congress year after year knowing they will be voted down? The message is that Obama does not care about budgets or deficits. He ony cares about growing government at a rate not seen since FDR. And he does it because he is at the core a redistributionist. I think this paragraph from the article says it all:

"The federal budget sent to Congress last month by Mr. Obama, projects the National Debt will continue to rise as far as the eye can see. The budget shows the Debt hitting $16.3 trillion in 2012, $17.5 trillion in 2013 and $25.9 trillion in 2022."
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:12 AM   #48
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The president proposes a budget which is approved or not by congress. Obama has never even gotten a single Democrat to vote for his budgets. The reason is that his budgets are not serious. How can anyone defend a president sending budgets to congress year after year knowing they will be voted down? The message is that Obama does not care about budgets or deficits. He ony cares about growing government at a rate not seen since FDR. And he does it because he is at the core a redistributionist. I think this paragraph from the article says it all:

"The federal budget sent to Congress last month by Mr. Obama, projects the National Debt will continue to rise as far as the eye can see. The budget shows the Debt hitting $16.3 trillion in 2012, $17.5 trillion in 2013 and $25.9 trillion in 2022."

Tex....if Obama's budgets have been voted down every year, then it stands to reason, that it is not Obama's spending that is driving our debt.

And as for your paragraph about future debt.....I have a news flash for you....The plan that republicans would love to get does not end deficits either....it only lowers the projected budget deficits, but we would still have large deficits, which means growing debt for as far as the eye can see, not shrinking debt.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:14 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by XQIZT View Post
Tex...and all others that do the "Bush v. Obama" spending comparison...you are using the benefit of hindsight.

AT THE TIME Bush was president, his spending/debt increase was the greatest we as a country had ever seen. No one had ANY idea what the next president (now Obama) would have done. The point people are trying to make is that no "conservatives" pitched a bitch about the THEN most reckless spending, so it seems disingenuous to throw a temper tantrum NOW (even though admittedly, Obama has gone to new levels).

In otherwords, it seems like the trigger to start worrying/complaining about spending was whether a (D) or an (R) followed the president's name.
The problem in trying to equate Bush debt with Obama debt is that our economy can handle $5-10T in debt. It cannot handle the $16T we are at or the $25T we are headed for. And Obama has simply done NOTHING to address this in his first four years. In addition, his attempt to play politics with the "Tax the rich" banner is not a serious effort to cut the deficit because every analysis has shown that the amount raised by that increase will be a drop in the bucket. He remains unwilling to address where the real problem lies: entitlements. And the Dems continue to declare them virtually untouchable because that's what the masses want to hear. But anyone who has paid attention knows that we must deal with those issues head on now, or we will deal with them in a much harsher environment later.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:24 AM   #50
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Tex, why do you keep responding to a guy who totally believes that Obama is no different than any Republican?

The machine for some reason hasn't noticed or truly dosn't want to understand

Uncle Sam's:

Pockets are empty
His wallet is empty
His checking account is over drawn
His credit cards are at their limits so he has to keep paying the fees with more loans
The crediters have noticed that Good Uncle Sam has borrowed way more than he can ever payback

So to keep people like the Machine in a fog, you have the media push push push that if you raise the taxes on the rich it will produce $82 billion dollars each year. But what they don't tell you is the revenues will only fund our government (at its current spending rate) 8 days.

People like the Machine do no have an answer how to supply the other 357 days of the year, but in the mean time we can give things to the underprivlage because the American tax dollars are no longer a shame to waste
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:29 AM   #51
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The problem in trying to equate Bush debt with Obama debt is that our economy can handle $5-10T in debt. It cannot handle the $16T we are at or the $25T we are headed for. And Obama has simply done NOTHING to address this in his first four years. In addition, his attempt to play politics with the "Tax the rich" banner is not a serious effort to cut the deficit because every analysis has shown that the amount raised by that increase will be a drop in the bucket. He remains unwilling to address where the real problem lies: entitlements. And the Dems continue to declare them virtually untouchable because that's what the masses want to hear. But anyone who has paid attention knows that we must deal with those issues head on now, or we will deal with them in a much harsher environment later.
Tex...you still have not shown where Obama has spent any more than anybody before him.

You claim that entitlements are the problem, but Social Security is fine just as it is and is not part of the debt...in fact Social Security is owed money. Social Security is solvent for another 10-15 years and a simple change of just making all income subject to SS tax, instead of the current cap of $102k, would make it solvent for as far as the eye can see.

Medicair is only a problem because of the rising cost of health care, and the addition by GW Bush of medicair part "D" without adding additional tax to pay for it. It was a gift given to seniors that was put on the national credit card.

As for taxing the wealthy....why not do what the country voted to do. No one has ever said that taxing the rich would pay off the debt, but it helps, just as every thing cut helps. But the difference in adding a few percentage points in added tax is that it doesn't hurt the economy while every cut does. And Obama has not said that he would not touch entitlements, but the pubs have said that they will not increase tax rates at all, I asume that is due to Grover Norquists pledge, and that is a stupid reason to not do the right thing.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:34 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
The problem in trying to equate Bush debt with Obama debt is that our economy can handle $5-10T in debt. It cannot handle the $16T we are at or the $25T we are headed for. And Obama has simply done NOTHING to address this in his first four years. In addition, his attempt to play politics with the "Tax the rich" banner is not a serious effort to cut the deficit because every analysis has shown that the amount raised by that increase will be a drop in the bucket. He remains unwilling to address where the real problem lies: entitlements. And the Dems continue to declare them virtually untouchable because that's what the masses want to hear. But anyone who has paid attention knows that we must deal with those issues head on now, or we will deal with them in a much harsher environment later.
Yes yes...."Entitlement reform"...another amazing catch phrase that is oft repeated, but never defined, much like the rampant, less than .001% "voter fraud" that haunted our dreams of a few months ago. Of ALL the spending the government does, how much goes to "welfare" and "entitlements." And how are those terms also defined? SS and Medicare are funded by those who have jobs and pay in, in the hopes that they get something back in the future...hardly an "entitlement", but more a program that is supposed to pay back the people who contributed to it.

So before any real conversation can be had, what EXACTLY are we talking about when we say "entitlements" and then, how much are those programs actually spending. THEN we can talk about how to reform them
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:39 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walleyfisher View Post
Tex, why do you keep responding to a guy who totally believes that Obama is no different than any Republican?

The machine for some reason hasn't noticed or truly dosn't want to understand

Uncle Sam's:

Pockets are empty
His wallet is empty
His checking account is over drawn
His credit cards are at their limits so he has to keep paying the fees with more loans
The crediters have noticed that Good Uncle Sam has borrowed way more than he can ever payback

So to keep people like the Machine in a fog, you have the media push push push that if you raise the taxes on the rich it will produce $82 billion dollars each year in revenues that will fund our government (at its current spending rate) 8 days.

People like the Machine do no have an answer how to supply the other 357 days of the year, but in the mean time we can give things to the underprivlage because the American tax dollars are no longer a shame to waste
Walleye what you fail to understand is that uncle sam never had pockets or a wallet or even a checking account. We are all uncle sam and we all on the hook as well as the benificieries of the money spent. But If our credit is so bad, why isn't our interest rate higher (it is currently at zero). I hardly think that creditors who see the US as having borrowed way more than it can ever pay back, would accept zero interest for the money they lend us. Does that make sense to you???

As for the income from higher taxes, we could certainly say that is just a drop in the bucket, but then again almost every thing we cut is also a drop in the bucket, untill we hit military spending hard, but the pubs refuse to do any of that. So if our debt is such a serious issue why would we take the best solutions off the table????
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:41 AM   #54
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You claim that entitlements are the problem, but Social Security is fine just as it is and is not part of the debt...in fact Social Security is owed money.
Which is precisely the problem! SS was robbed by congress to fund the general spending. SS has NO money of it's own other than current revenues in and out. It is owed tons of money. Now where do you suppose the government is going to get the money to pay it back? NOWHERE! Those who tout SS being solvent for years can only do so with the assumption that this money gets repaid. Currently, there is no way to repay it, and the future doesn't look any better.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:44 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by XQIZT View Post
Yes yes...."Entitlement reform"...another amazing catch phrase that is oft repeated, but never defined, much like the rampant, less than .001% "voter fraud" that haunted our dreams of a few months ago. Of ALL the spending the government does, how much goes to "welfare" and "entitlements." And how are those terms also defined? SS and Medicare are funded by those who have jobs and pay in, in the hopes that they get something back in the future...hardly an "entitlement", but more a program that is supposed to pay back the people who contributed to it.

So before any real conversation can be had, what EXACTLY are we talking about when we say "entitlements" and then, how much are those programs actually spending. THEN we can talk about how to reform them
Well, it's been very well defined in the articles I have been reading over the past year. The bulk of entitlement spending is Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. Yes, money goes in, but more money goes out. With SS, if it had been left alone, it would be quite solvent. But it's surplus has been robbed for decades and it is now running hand to mouth. The big kahuna is Medicare. There is no plan for reforming it, and without such a plan, it will fail in just a few years. The fixes are all painful, starting with raising the eligibility age. But it must be done. Means testing must also be done. After that, only cuts in services are left. But one way another, those things must happen.
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Old 12-10-2012, 09:59 AM   #56
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Which is precisely the problem! SS was robbed by congress to fund the general spending. SS has NO money of it's own other than current revenues in and out. It is owed tons of money. Now where do you suppose the government is going to get the money to pay it back? NOWHERE! Those who tout SS being solvent for years can only do so with the assumption that this money gets repaid. Currently, there is no way to repay it, and the future doesn't look any better.
Sorry Tex but that is just another of the myths that are sold to us about SS. It was set up from the begining in such a way that all money collected in excess of money paid out be invested in treasury bills. So that money is simply in our treasury as a debit that is also earning what ever rate of return the treasury is paying. The only way the government does not pay the money back is if the government defaults on the debt. If the government defaults on the debt their would be far worse problems than seniors not getting their checks...as the dollar would probably become worthless anyway.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:00 AM   #57
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Those aren't "entitlements." Those are funded by working people, again, with the expectation that those same people would get the money out when they were eligible. Don't blame the general public when, for decades, the federal government "borrowed" from these accounts.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:01 AM   #58
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Walleye what you fail to understand is that uncle sam never had pockets or a wallet or even a checking account. We are all uncle sam and we all on the hook as well as the benificieries of the money spent. But If our credit is so bad, why isn't our interest rate higher (it is currently at zero). I hardly think that creditors who see the US as having borrowed way more than it can ever pay back, would accept zero interest for the money they lend us. Does that make sense to you???
Really? why do you think the Fed keeps pumping money into the stock market? Why does Obama only uses his Stimulus I, II, II, and soon to be IV?

Its all being proped up and you can deny all you want but if the spending is not drastically cut it will fall down, but as long as its possiable to blame the Republicans the Democrats in charge don't give a hoot
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:08 AM   #59
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Those aren't "entitlements." Those are funded by working people, again, with the expectation that those same people would get the money out when they were eligible. Don't blame the general public when, for decades, the federal government "borrowed" from these accounts.
They didn't borrow from the accounts. The money was and always has been used to buy treasury bills, which is basicaly the government bank. Remember that money is just a treasury note. It would be stupid to put a treasury note into some box to be used later to pay someone who was paying into the system. Just like there is not a big bundle of money sitting at your local bank with your name on it. what you have is a number on a ledger that says oyu have x number of dallars in your bank account. Well the treasury is just like that bank. And there are x number of dollars sitting on a ledger in the account for Socail security. Now just like your money in the bank, that money is used by lending it to others and collecting interest, which you get a small piece of. Of course the treasury also uses that SS money the same way.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:12 AM   #60
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Those aren't "entitlements." Those are funded by working people, again, with the expectation that those same people would get the money out when they were eligible. Don't blame the general public when, for decades, the federal government "borrowed" from these accounts.
But when you hear politicians talk about entitlement reform, this is exactly what they are talking about. Yes, it inclues welfare, food stamps, unemployement, etc. But the bulk of our current and future payments goes to SS, Medicare and Medicaid. And with the baby boomers retiring by the day, they are going to mushroom. Why are you playing semantics when you know what the problem is? This is a huge looming problem for our country, and our president and the Dems want to play politics. It's not the current president's job to explain to us who caused our problem. It's his job to come up with a plan to solve the problem now and into the future. He can save his blame game for the books he will surely write after he is out of office.
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