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Old 12-10-2012, 12:33 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by walleyfisher View Post
So If the national debt is $16T and the government also owes the tax payers $21.1T for SS how in the heck does asking the rich to pay another $82B going to make a difference? The only way is to cut way back on spending and re-paying some f the SS money

In my humble opinion medicare medicaid, and Social Security were programs that NEVER were substanable (at least forever). there was always going to come a time when more people are recieving than are paying and thats where our country is now and as you pointed out the life line has been spent
Good question. But at least we've separated "debt" from "whats owed to SS." You're right, cutting spending is a good way to start. Now lets go with your numbers and say the Fed owes the taxpayers $21.1T in "borrowed" SS. Marginal cuts to small programs ain't gonna do it.

Interesting website with lots of ways to look at the data.
http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/
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Old 12-10-2012, 12:36 PM   #77
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Amazingly, you seem to continue to say that because people had some expectations, and even paid into those expectations, that nothing can be considered that would alter those expectations.
I said I was for the Bush idea of privatizing SS and letting ME decide how my money is dealt with. I'm not saying we shouldn't consider making changes...I'm saying it will be WILDLY unpopular.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:05 PM   #78
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So, the fact that it has been known to be a growing problem means we just ignore it now??? You seem to be arguing that we should just ignore our growing debt and the plain fact that our entitlement funding will run out because you don't like the fact that Republicans were involved in getting us here. I don't care who got us here. It is time to act. Why do you keep coming up with reasons not to address the huge problems facing us?
You know Tex, the problem is that 8 years ago things were booming. The treasury was taking in more money than ever, but nothing was doen to address these problems. Today we are making a very slow recovery from the worst recession we ever had. We are in a fragile economic situation right now, so why fuck with the economy by cutting hard now?? The time to act is not now as you say but when the economy is back on it's feet. I would have absolutly no problem tying the cuts to the performance of the economy. If the economy is growing by say 4% we can cut out 1% so it slows a little but not enough to put us back in recession. We could also demand that all future surplusses be used to pay off debt only. If the economy starts booming even more we can cut even more, but to say that now is the time to act sounds like it is the time to act only because the pain can then be blamed on the Democrats. It seems completely partisan, and that is why the Pubs are losing in the minds of the public.
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Welcome to the Machine...... (I'm still a clown) this from Ponch (second time) who is supposed to be a moderator on this site....but of course if you disagree with him this is the sort of thing he does. It is simply amazing that anyone would give a guy who is so obviously childish and spiteful a position of authority.
Old 12-10-2012, 02:12 PM   #79
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You know Tex, the problem is that 8 years ago things were booming. The treasury was taking in more money than ever, but nothing was doen to address these problems. Today we are making a very slow recovery from the worst recession we ever had. We are in a fragile economic situation right now, so why fuck with the economy by cutting hard now?? The time to act is not now as you say but when the economy is back on it's feet. I would have absolutly no problem tying the cuts to the performance of the economy. If the economy is growing by say 4% we can cut out 1% so it slows a little but not enough to put us back in recession. We could also demand that all future surplusses be used to pay off debt only. If the economy starts booming even more we can cut even more, but to say that now is the time to act sounds like it is the time to act only because the pain can then be blamed on the Democrats. It seems completely partisan, and that is why the Pubs are losing in the minds of the public.
The Pubs are not calling for an immediate giant cut. They are asking for some serious sit-down discussions to begin to develop a plan. The plan could be phased in over a long period of time. We can't wait for a booming economy to begin planning. At that point the excuse will be, "Well, it takes years to implement this type of change, and we don't want to derail our hot economy". Sooner or later, we have to get serious about reform.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:38 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
The Pubs are not calling for an immediate giant cut. They are asking for some serious sit-down discussions to begin to develop a plan. The plan could be phased in over a long period of time. We can't wait for a booming economy to begin planning. At that point the excuse will be, "Well, it takes years to implement this type of change, and we don't want to derail our hot economy". Sooner or later, we have to get serious about reform.
Although I agree with you 100%.
It's never going to happen. Politicians will never take away what they give. Get ready for Greece. It's coming.

Stock up on food and weapons.

The only thing different will be there is no one out there to bail us out, like we did for them. World economic collapse, it's coming.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:54 PM   #81
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Although I agree with you 100%.
It's never going to happen. Politicians will never take away what they give. Get ready for Greece. It's coming.

Stock up on food and weapons.

The only thing different will be there is no one out there to bail us out, like we did for them. World economic collapse, it's coming.
Well, you're just full of Christmas cheer, aren't you? Unfortunately, what you described is one possible scenario if we don't solve this problem before it causes an economic collapse. Everyone agrees we cannot continue on the same path we are on. The annual deficit will eventually cause an inability to pay for the goods. When serious cuts or elimination of "benefits" occurs across all kinds of groups at one time, civil chaos could occur. I hope the Dems quit playing politics with this issue and get serious about fixing the problem while it (possibly) can still be fixed.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:33 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Well, you're just full of Christmas cheer, aren't you? Unfortunately, what you described is one possible scenario if we don't solve this problem before it causes an economic collapse. Everyone agrees we cannot continue on the same path we are on. The annual deficit will eventually cause an inability to pay for the goods. When serious cuts or elimination of "benefits" occurs across all kinds of groups at one time, civil chaos could occur. I hope the Dems quit playing politics with this issue and get serious about fixing the problem while it (possibly) can still be fixed.
Interesting.
According to the libtards, it's the Pubs playing politics. http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/1...or-rationality

I had hope that our government would repair the damage that it has done and correct our direction, PRIOR to the last election. Now....not so much. Show me ONE thing that Obama has done, or even insinuated he'd do, to cut spending? With Boner running the House, the pubs will roll over. The next 4 years will insure higher taxes, higher spending, inflation (while the government denies it's happening), stagnant economy, and further devaluation of the dollar.

We've voted in big government and socialist ideals. Our country is on the downfall. You heard it here first.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:43 PM   #83
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Although I agree with you 100%.
It's never going to happen. Politicians will never take away what they give. Get ready for Greece. It's coming.

Stock up on food and weapons.

The only thing different will be there is no one out there to bail us out, like we did for them. World economic collapse, it's coming.
We are not Greece. Greece would be more equal to Mississippi or Nevada. Greece does not control it's currency. Greece cannot change the value of it's currency in any way. Greece has to do what the more successfull countries tell them to do so they can borrow money from them to pay their debts. Those countries tell them they have to impliment austerity so they can borrow money, and that austerity has simply colapsed their economy. They will never be able to pay back their debt because they have no economy left, and the european union will lose all it has lent Greece because they are strangling them.

Before the euro, Greece like any other soverign nation, would have devalued their currency. That devaluation would cause things to cost more for the Greeks and so they would have to tighten their belt, and so would not buy so many imported products, so less money leaving the country, and the lower value of their money would make their products and services cheaper in the market place. That would cause money to flood in as tourism and exports brought in much needed capital.

The US being a soveriegn nation and also the printer of the world trade currency is complelty in control of their fate, as they can print money until they have devalued it to the point that imports are more expensive, and exports are much cheaper. That would make our goods and services a better deal for the world which would bring in needed capital. we also have the unique ability to pay off our debts to the world in currency that we print and so are simply paying them off with paper, while all other countries must convert their currency to dollars and cannot print those dollars but must exchange them.
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Welcome to the Machine...... (I'm still a clown) this from Ponch (second time) who is supposed to be a moderator on this site....but of course if you disagree with him this is the sort of thing he does. It is simply amazing that anyone would give a guy who is so obviously childish and spiteful a position of authority.
Old 12-10-2012, 04:01 PM   #84
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We are not Greece. Greece would be more equal to Mississippi or Nevada. Greece does not control it's currency. Greece cannot change the value of it's currency in any way. Greece has to do what the more successfull countries tell them to do so they can borrow money from them to pay their debts. Those countries tell them they have to impliment austerity so they can borrow money, and that austerity has simply colapsed their economy. They will never be able to pay back their debt because they have no economy left, and the european union will lose all it has lent Greece because they are strangling them.

Before the euro, Greece like any other soverign nation, would have devalued their currency. That devaluation would cause things to cost more for the Greeks and so they would have to tighten their belt, and so would not buy so many imported products, so less money leaving the country, and the lower value of their money would make their products and services cheaper in the market place. That would cause money to flood in as tourism and exports brought in much needed capital.

The US being a soveriegn nation and also the printer of the world trade currency is complelty in control of their fate, as they can print money until they have devalued it to the point that imports are more expensive, and exports are much cheaper. That would make our goods and services a better deal for the world which would bring in needed capital. we also have the unique ability to pay off our debts to the world in currency that we print and so are simply paying them off with paper, while all other countries must convert their currency to dollars and cannot print those dollars but must exchange them.
Some of what you say is exagerated wishful thinking, some is delusional. Do you look forward to the day that our dollar is so devalued that imports are too expensive for our middle class to purchase and we need wheel barrows to carry our money to the grocery store? You do realize there has been movement to replace the dollar as the world's currency too? Don't you?
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:22 PM   #85
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Some of what you say is exagerated wishful thinking, some is delusional. Do you look forward to the day that our dollar is so devalued that imports are too expensive for our middle class to purchase and we need wheel barrows to carry our money to the grocery store? You do realize there has been movement to replace the dollar as the world's currency too? Don't you?
Again we are also not post WWI Germany. Germany was forced to repay countries for war costs so their capital was drained from the country. No matter how much money the printed they could not pay their debts and hyper inflation set in. Again a country not in controll of it's currency.

Yes there have been movements at times to replace the dollar as the world currency, but it has never gone anywhere. why??? Because so many countries hold our currency that if they tried to get rid of the dollar as the world currency they would get stuck with trillions in usless cash. Furthermore the world likes a stable country that they can invest in and the USA is that. Contrary to all the hyperboli our government is very stable and our banks are sound.

But tell us all please...why weren't you concerned about all of this spending when Bush was doing it and Cheney was saying that deficts don't matter anymore.
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Welcome to the Machine...... (I'm still a clown) this from Ponch (second time) who is supposed to be a moderator on this site....but of course if you disagree with him this is the sort of thing he does. It is simply amazing that anyone would give a guy who is so obviously childish and spiteful a position of authority.
Old 12-10-2012, 04:39 PM   #86
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Again we are also not post WWI Germany. Germany was forced to repay countries for war costs so their capital was drained from the country. No matter how much money the printed they could not pay their debts and hyper inflation set in. Again a country not in controll of it's currency.

Yes there have been movements at times to replace the dollar as the world currency, but it has never gone anywhere. why??? Because so many countries hold our currency that if they tried to get rid of the dollar as the world currency they would get stuck with trillions in usless cash. Furthermore the world likes a stable country that they can invest in and the USA is that. Contrary to all the hyperboli our government is very stable and our banks are sound.

But tell us all please...why weren't you concerned about all of this spending when Bush was doing it and Cheney was saying that deficts don't matter anymore.
Way to blame Bush. Typical Liberal rebuttal.
A thousand years from now, libtards will still be blaming Bush.
When you can't argue the facts, digress to something else.

Replacing the dollar has gone no where as of yet because the dollar has remained stable so far. Now when that dollar is devalued and worthless, what will keep it from being replaced? How will we be any different from Greece when the dollar is worthless?
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:17 AM   #87
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A thousand years from now, libtards will still be blaming Bush.
You must not think things are all that bad if you believe the arguments will continue for another thousand years.
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Old 12-11-2012, 10:24 AM   #88
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But tell us all please...why weren't you concerned about all of this spending when Bush was doing it and Cheney was saying that deficts don't matter anymore.
I think if I hear that line one more time, I'm gonna throw up. If you owe $1000 dollars on your credit cards, do you feel the same urgency you would feel if you owed $10,000? Of course not! Our debt has gone up over 50% in the last four years. We see no slowdown in the future. We are not in the same economic circumstances as we were during the Bush years. Cheney was actually right. This country can easily handle a $9T debt. It cannot handle a $25T debt, which is where we are headed. Please quit looking back and try looking forward for a change.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:04 PM   #89
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You must not think things are all that bad if you believe the arguments will continue for another thousand years.
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Old 12-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #90
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I think if I hear that line one more time, I'm gonna throw up. If you owe $1000 dollars on your credit cards, do you feel the same urgency you would feel if you owed $10,000? Of course not! Our debt has gone up over 50% in the last four years. We see no slowdown in the future. We are not in the same economic circumstances as we were during the Bush years. Cheney was actually right. This country can easily handle a $9T debt. It cannot handle a $25T debt, which is where we are headed. Please quit looking back and try looking forward for a change.
You'd think for an Obama supporter, Machine would look "FORWARD".

Another left double standard. Go figure.
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