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Old 11-28-2012, 09:13 PM   #16
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With respect to the price, it is my strong belief that the original $70k price-tag of the GT-R was never sustainable, they were selling at a loss there.

The GT-R has alot of parts, a motor that probably costs alot to make relative to an LS7 for similar output. An expensive transmission, a unique interior that doesn't share parts, 3900 pounds of stuff, 2 drive shafts, 2 differentials, 4 half-shafts, a more expensive marketing-based-testing program than probably any other car extant (how much time do they spend trying to work down those 'ring laps), and so on. All amortized over very few sales. Z06's and ZR1's and GT3s and 911 Turbos get to share a ton of parts with higher volume stablemates, which must help with their costs quite a bit.

I would think that at around $110k the pricing is approaching sustainability? Or maybe it needs to go a little higher yet.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:11 AM   #17
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I was very bored after waking up early this morning so I read some insideline, I found this:

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...ison-test.html

The Z06 beat the GT-R at most everything, slalom, lap time, ... except straight line acceleration. The GT-R had brake fade on the track, the Z06 didn't.

Nissan made the 'ring time and lap times so famous in peoples minds, and in a strange twist of irony, they have created a monster for themselves by doing so. The GT-R platform is matchless at 0-60 acceleration. Low gearing + AWD + instant DCT upshifts, it can't be matched except by another car (say a 911 Turbo) set up similarly or perhaps by some hypercar. Maybe they should have stuck to old fashioned 0-60 marketing? Time will tell.

Its nice to read someone else experiencing snap oversteer in the GT-R, I was starting to wonder if I was somehow driving it like a crazy person. Apparently for 2012/2013 its gotten "lively"
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:17 AM   #18
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A blacked out C6 Z06 at night is one of the prettiest things in the car world.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:04 AM   #19
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I was very bored after waking up early this morning so I read some insideline, I found this:

http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/...ison-test.html

The Z06 beat the GT-R at most everything, slalom, lap time, ... except straight line acceleration. The GT-R had brake fade on the track, the Z06 didn't.

Nissan made the 'ring time and lap times so famous in peoples minds, and in a strange twist of irony, they have created a monster for themselves by doing so. The GT-R platform is matchless at 0-60 acceleration. Low gearing + AWD + instant DCT upshifts, it can't be matched except by another car (say a 911 Turbo) set up similarly or perhaps by some hypercar. Maybe they should have stuck to old fashioned 0-60 marketing? Time will tell.

Its nice to read someone else experiencing snap oversteer in the GT-R, I was starting to wonder if I was somehow driving it like a crazy person. Apparently for 2012/2013 its gotten "lively"
OMG, snap over steer in the GTR!!!!!!! must be the leaf springs on it....
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Old 12-13-2012, 03:59 PM   #20
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OMG, snap over steer in the GTR!!!!!!! must be the leaf springs on it....
I would say that the rumors of the GT-R being self-driving, just aim and mash the throttle, are pretty overstated, at least for the higher hp 2013 model.

Is winter here now, but truth be told I didn't find the GT-R all that predictably behaved while there was still dry warm roads. I'll have to mess around with it some more next summer.

But... the GT-R is self driving in a straight line. Hit two buttons, foot on the brake, floor the gas, release brake = go fast.

It isn't always consistent. On dry roads I've experienced forward acceleration from 0.9g to 1.25g (peak reported acceleration in first gear). Road surface variations, motor temp, fuel, who knows.
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:35 PM   #21
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I love the GTR, my only gripe about the GTR is what it promotes in the automotive world.

If you take away all of the electronics that makes the performance of the car possible such as the AWD system (ATTESA E-TS) and the duel clutch automated manual gear box its really an under powered Ford Shelby GT500.

If Ford took their 662BHP GT500 and installed a dynamic AWD system and replaced the transmission with a DCT it would have much of the same result (the GTR has had a ton of work in optimizing the aerodynamics and suspension tuning). Cars like the C6 Z06 just may go extinct in favor of cars like the Nissan GTR, cars like the Subaru BRZ and Scion FRS may not be possible in such a market. I am glad that the C7 will remain RWD and that they are focused on reducing the weight of the car.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:53 PM   #22
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I love the GTR, my only gripe about the GTR is what it promotes in the automotive world.

If you take away all of the electronics that makes the performance of the car possible such as the AWD system (ATTESA E-TS) and the duel clutch automated manual gear box its really an under powered Ford Shelby GT500.

If Ford took their 662BHP GT500 and installed a dynamic AWD system and replaced the transmission with a DCT it would have much of the same result (the GTR has had a ton of work in optimizing the aerodynamics and suspension tuning). Cars like the C6 Z06 just may go extinct in favor of cars like the Nissan GTR, cars like the Subaru BRZ and Scion FRS may not be possible in such a market. I am glad that the C7 will remain RWD and that they are focused on reducing the weight of the car.
That was really well said. A RWD GT-R with a stick shift would be a hopeless mess.

The car really is based around AWD and the DCT, without either of those it wouldn't work very well. Those two make it possible to use very low gearing in first gear (which is the reason its so fast 0-60)... But they result in a heavy car that I believe is rather front-weight-biased. Which leads to the need for the very stiff springs, etc etc.

Its influence over the car world has been huge, it will push 911's away from their 911ness and towards mid engine easy to drive cars. It will pressure everybody to make cars more controllable...

But another factor here is just how plain powerful cars have gotten. 600hp is not too rare these days, and the power race doesn't seem to be ending. A whole lot easier to control a 300hp car without a computer than a 600hp car.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:00 PM   #23
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It sin't just the AWD system, there have been plenty of cars with AWD and the understeer (though not as bad as FWD cars).

Its the computer system, its AWD system has its own ECO and can split the power between 50:50 to 2:98 and split the torque between both rear wheels. The computer on the AWD system does a lot of work and it all works very well together. To the point where its specs on a spec sheet isn't that impressive in the performance world and yet its faster then cars that it shouldn't be faster then.

There have been suggestions that the Nissan GTR was under rated from the factory. That when it first came out with a 480BHP rating that it was producing a good amount more then that. Now for 2013 it has a 545BHP rating and the car has been tweaked and improved on every single year in a major way. Its rating went from 480BHP to 485BHP after that to 530BHP and now 545BHP where it stands. Also the car has had its suspension retuned pretty much every year that its been in production. The car has actually gotten both longer and wider since it came out, as a vehicle program its a model IMHO to what every car maker should do to its performance car.

Just think, the 2012 C6 Z06 ran a 7:22 on the ring.... if GM did what Nissan did they car would have its suspension tuning changed for 2013 and it would run something like a 7:18.... then for 2014....
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:47 PM   #24
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Funny how every six cylinder supercar needs forced induction to hang with a small block V8. Take the blower off and what do you have?

I get into these debates with tuner fans who dismiss a V8 as a tool of a simpleminded redneck. To that I ask them how many Ferraris were built with a V6? I rest my case.


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Old 12-14-2012, 12:33 AM   #25
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Funny how every six cylinder supercar needs forced induction to hang with a small block V8. Take the blower off and what do you have?

I get into these debates with tuner fans who dismiss a V8 as a tool of a simpleminded redneck. To that I ask them how many Ferraris were built with a V6? I rest my case.


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People get caught up in the semantics of the whole thing, if you need 6.0L of volume to make the power that you want then you need 6.0L of volume. It doesn't matter if its a 6.0L V-12, a 6.0L V-8, or a 6.0L V-6. However a 6.0L V-6 isn't that practical so its easier to make a 3.5L V-6 (or in the case of the GTR 3.8L V-6) and make up the rest with a supercharger or a turbo charger the 2.2-2.5L. Really one should look at the lightest, most compact, and most efficient way to do that.

There are inherent benefits of going with a factory turbocharged motor, the last Supra engine has shown itself to be capable of handling 700+BHP with the stock bottom end. You can probably get the 3.8L V-6 engine to 700BHP easier then you can the 7.0L LS7. Though any extreme power levels requires that the motor be fully built in any case.

It is true that there are some red necks that love big American V-8s, however what is happening here is simple. They are choosing to use a small part of the fan base to paint everyone in that group. This also happens on this site toward people who prefer Japanese or European performance cars.

I personally think its silly to limit yourself by choice to one type of vehicle or another. If every car was built the same exact way, lets say front engine RWD and V-8 power then there would be nothing at all special about the Corvette. Its the variety and the difference that makes the Corvette what it is, I also have respect for all of the car companies who go about building a car in a different way to reach the same goal. The Gumpert Apollo is a turbocharged V-8 mid engine RWD car and it ran the ring in 7:11.57. The ACR Viper is a front engine RWD V-10 powered car and it ran it in 7:12.13, the LExus LFA is also a V-10 front engine RWD car however a super high revving engine and DCT transmission and it ran 7:14.64. The 911 GT2 RS is a flat 6 TT rear engine RWD car that ran it in 7:18.0 and the ZR1 a supercharged front engine RWD V-8 powered car that ran it in 7:1963.

Actually I find it interesting how people try to talk as if AWD TT V-6 is the way of the future due to its impressive performance. Not one of those cars is AWD......
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:19 AM   #26
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It should never be a discussion of numbers on paper. In the real world, it's all about torque and available torque at RPM and that is why the V-8 is so great. It offers copious amounts of torque right off of 1000rpm. So you don't have to shift if you don't want to... engine flexibility makes for a great driving experience... many of these engines that have great stats, don't have any power unless they downshift two gears and the beauty of the V8 is that you don't really have to...you just "think it" and it happens.... and the V-8 OHV is the most compact and lightest architecture out there... and as for fuel economy, i can easily get 35 MPG out of my LS3, because there is no huge parasitic overhead in spinning all that extra bullshit that makes more power ( but only at 7000+ rpm )
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:41 PM   #27
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On the torque issue you can not beat a turbo charge motor. The ls3 has good low end grunt however the gtr engine puts it to shame.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #28
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that's when the turbo kicks in, the power comes on... i used to own a 1987 Buick Grand National... and WHEN it came.. on... boy did it... but not progressive power... more like a swell.... i know that they came a long way in addressing lag... but i like normal aspriation.
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Old 12-14-2012, 06:15 PM   #29
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that's when the turbo kicks in, the power comes on... i used to own a 1987 Buick Grand National... and WHEN it came.. on... boy did it... but not progressive power... more like a swell.... i know that they came a long way in addressing lag... but i like normal aspriation.
I was just going to say, they came a long way in handling lag to the point where its non existent (depending on application).

Don't get me wrong, I also prefer normal aspiration when it comes to V-8 engines. The reality is simple though, with the strides that have been made in turbocharging technology they can produce turbocharge engines that act like normally aspirated engines.

By the way there is talk that Buick might get a new Grand National, built on the Alpha platform and packing a 425BHP 3.6L TT V-6 engine.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:36 PM   #30
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On the torque issue you can not beat a turbo charge motor. The ls3 has good low end grunt however the gtr engine puts it to shame.
Yeah but the point is that a 6 cylinder NEEDS boost in order to hang with an NA V8. Look at the history:

A 911 NEEDS boost to hang with a C4.
A Supra NEEDS boost to hang with a C5.
A GT-R NEEDS boost to hang with a C6.

...and what happens when you spray a tiny bit of NOS in a Corvette? All those turbos are far in the rear view mirror...

'There is no replacement for displacement' isn't just an anecdote. It's a fact.


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