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Old 01-03-2013, 05:27 AM   #31
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Quote:
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Yes, some people are trying to make way too much of a simple analysis of a single part and clearly not reading the entire post.



Not if too much plasic plus additional hardware is needed due to the quarter windows. One look at the support stucture parts makes it clear that the C5 / C6 design was quite simple compared to the C7. Will the C7 design end up being lighter? It might be. We don't have enough information yet. All I'm saying is that the new roof hatch design in and of itself is not necessarily lighter than the C6 design.

As I've already said, I was discussing the impact of this particular change on the total weight of the car. IMO, probably not much impact. Tage has said the car is substantially lighter, so that is a given. As I have already said, IMO after seeing this part, unless CF is used, this area won't be significantly lighter than the same area of the C6. That just means the weight significant savings are coming from other parts of the car, IMO

Read my posts here. Some of you are making a bigger deal out of this than I am.
Probably you didn't look at mi post , but this could easy be carbon fiber composite . Second i work with glass, a huge piece of glass like the c6 use will always weight more than plastic or CF.
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Old 01-03-2013, 06:10 AM   #32
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Probably you didn't look at mi post , but this could easy be carbon fiber composite . Second i work with glass, a huge piece of glass like the c6 use will always weight more than plastic or CF.
From an engineering perspective, this is good. Window glass weighs about 50% more for any given volume than fiberglass, and the difference is even more (obviously) for carbon fiber, not to mention the structural benefits.

And I wouldn't be surprised this is CF, it wouldn't make sense to use the very expensive clear laminate to protect this CF piece from UV damage when nobody will really ever see it. They most likely used a much more basic (and less costly) laminate for the CF.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:24 AM   #33
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Prepping carbon fiber with the visible weave and the clear coat needed for it adds a ton of cost to carbon fiber parts. If GM had made the roof section for the ZR1 out of regular carbon fiber and painted it then the cost would have been reduced.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:31 AM   #34
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Probably you didn't look at mi post , but this could easy be carbon fiber composite . Second i work with glass, a huge piece of glass like the c6 use will always weight more than plastic or CF.
Probably you didn't read my post where I have said multiple times, if they use CF for the support and hatch panels it will be much lighter. I also said I know that glass is heavy but can be offset by the addition of too much added plastic AND additional mounting hardware needed for the new quarter windows. That is probably not the case here, but if there is a weight savings it is not much, IMO.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:39 AM   #35
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Prepping carbon fiber with the visible weave and the clear coat needed for it adds a ton of cost to carbon fiber parts. If GM had made the roof section for the ZR1 out of regular carbon fiber and painted it then the cost would have been reduced.
Absolutely ... and apparently the new CF manufacturing tech will be able to produce CF panels more effeciently. It probably doesn't look like the "pretty" weave most are used to seeing. As mentioned earlier, this hatch support production piece might even be the look of the new CF process.

I hope it is. We have hoped that the body panels will be CF, but there are also plenty of support panels like this one that would lighten the car significantly if they are all CF.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:38 AM   #36
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Knowing practically NOTHING about CF, what causes it to be more costly than another synthetic material, if the intent is to paint it rather than exposing the mesh in its natural state?
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:47 AM   #37
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Knowing practically NOTHING about CF, what causes it to be more costly than another synthetic material, if the intent is to paint it rather than exposing the mesh in its natural state?
I know a little about carbon fiber, what causes carbon fiber to be so costly is partly because of the production methods (which are always improving) are such that in the past it wasn't able to be mass produced. Everything had to essentially be produced by hand labor, now there are some production methods to producing carbon fiber. The other factor comes down to economy of scale, because it was used in high priced low volume applications the per unit cost was high.

With improved production methods and higher volume applications the cost of carbon fiber will come down significantly. Eventually it will cost around the same as fiberglass or traditional steel and is expected to become common place even in cheap economy cars.

Consider this, the C5 had no use of carbon fiber in base or Z06 trim. The C6 eventually saw extensive use of carbon fiber in body panels and certain structural parts. Now the C7 is stated to see carbon fiber in base form, even the ZL1 Camaro uses some carbon fiber (carbon fiber Mohawk).
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:49 AM   #38
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Knowing practically NOTHING about CF, what causes it to be more costly than another synthetic material, if the intent is to paint it rather than exposing the mesh in its natural state?
Raw CF isn't so expensive per-say, it's the process to make it into parts that is. It takes a long time vs using other methods/materials, although there are new methods that have sped up the process incredibly and the price is dropping.

Just an example, when McLaren made the original McLaren F1 (1992-98) it took 300 hours to produce one carbon fiber tub. Now for the new McLaren MP4-12C (2011-current) it only takes 3 hours to produce one carbon fiber tub.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...er-less-costly
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:24 AM   #39
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Plasan Carbon Composites has developed a less expensive CF production process, but they are understandably quiet about the details. They say this is ...

Quote:
...breakthrough carbon fiber processing technology” to support mid-to-high volume-based automotive body model programs.
Plasan claims to have found a way to bring production costs down to a level where the material can be used for mass-produced vehicles, and they are starting production in West Michigan.
http://www.mlive.com/business/west-m...tes_carbo.html

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Plasan Carbon Composites’ current generation of automotive carbon fiber is out on the road now — 65 pounds’ worth of low-weight, high-speed body panels on the 2013 SRT Viper.

Plasan is getting ready for the next generation, investing $18 million on a plant in Walker, Mich., where five new presses are set to make parts starting in 2013 and boasting a 17-minute cycle time.
http://www.plasticsnews.com/headlines2.html?id=26573

I'm guessing this is still lightweight CF but without the "pretty" weave seen through clear resin. It could be only ugly stuff that is suitable for support structures - like the floors of the C7 - or it could be smooth and paintable on at least one side.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:47 AM   #40
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Here is the Carbon Fiber / Balsa Wood floor from the Z06/ZR1 for reference.



Also, here is a bare carbon fiber body.

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Old 01-03-2013, 11:49 AM   #41
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All that roof structure may be required because of the Aluminum frame, with the C6 Z06 there is no TARGA because of the aluminum frame and the inherint flex. Now that the C7 has the Aluminum frame, you would require more stucture to allow for the Targa... so maybe, form follows function here.

I would have been more interested in a hi-tech plexiglass that is lighter and doesn't degrade.... that would have lightened up all the glass area... instead of reducing glass area in order to save weight.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:52 AM   #42
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Plasan Carbon Composites has developed a less expensive CF production process, but they are understandably quiet about the details. They say this is ...



http://www.mlive.com/business/west-m...tes_carbo.html

Elsewhere:


http://www.plasticsnews.com/headlines2.html?id=26573

I'm guessing this is still lightweight CF but without the "pretty" weave seen through clear resin. It could be only ugly stuff that is suitable for support structures - like the floors of the C7 - or it could be smooth and paintable on at least one side.
This has always been the case with carbon fiber, in order to see the weave that has become associated with carbon fiber its actually a process. The old GT1 Corvette race cars for example had carbon fiber bodies, however when they had no paint on them the carbon fiber looked like it could be plastic (no weave).

This has been a huge frustration of mine, people will buy a carbon fiber hood and put it on their car. Yet they have taken no measures to reduce weight on their vehicle. For them its all for show, they don't care about the possible performance improvement from lower mass.

Also the pure fact that they have not taken any weight reduction measures and just slapped on a carbon fiber hood shows that they don't get it at all. The bang for your buck as far as weight reduction of going with extensive use of carbon fiber is very poor. Its an expensive (and lazy) way to reduce the weight of a vehicle, its also something that is often used as a marketing point (we extensively used carbon fiber in order to reduce the weight of our vehicle). Then a competitor with no use of carbon fiber produces a lighter vehicle and no one is the wiser that they are actually be sold what is mostly a bill of goods.
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:53 AM   #43
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All that roof structure may be required because of the Aluminum frame, with the C6 Z06 there is no TARGA because of the aluminum frame and the inherint flex. Now that the C7 has the Aluminum frame, you would require more stucture to allow for the Targa... so maybe, form follows function here.

I would have been more interested in a hi-tech plexiglass that is lighter and doesn't degrade.... that would have lightened up all the glass area... instead of reducing glass area in order to save weight.
If the piece that we have seen is structural then yes it will improve the structural rigidity of the car.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:26 PM   #44
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I know that I am in the minority, but quite frankly, I don't like the weave-under-resin unpainted CF look. It might be because of all those black hoods on riceburners mentioned, but to me that look just seems unfinished and cheap. Yes, I know the resin on the ZR1 CF roof is $40 gazillion an ounce, but I'd take mine painted or in Polycarbinate.

New topic related to an earlier comment on this thread.
Last week I saw a product that is used to treat the surface of Polycarbinate "glass" that, supposedly, makes it as good as glass. Their demonstration was windshield wiper wrapped in steel wool that was continually running in their exhibit. There were no scratches on the polycarbinate panel taking this abuse.

I VERY serously doubt that the C7 will make use of Polycarbinate anywhere except the targa roof, but this tech is getting better all the time. It WILL reach production at some point - probably not windshields and maybe not side glass (unless they can make it shatter like glass). Rear windows, sunroofs and some SUV applications will be the first production use, IMO.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:55 PM   #45
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I wish they'd quit using Camaro parts.

(How do you get this stuff?)
.. and why would c7 parts be in someone's shop??
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