President Obama Avoids the Fisical Cliff

[Texdentist]

Originally Posted by the machine

Tex....where does every dollar of Government spending go???

What happens to the economy when those dollars are gone??

Where does every dollar of Government spending come from???

Government spending goes all over the world. The money comes from all over the world. When we can't collect or print enough, there will be economic collapse. I guess I'll let you tell me what your point is. If your trying to say all the money comes from here and stays here, it's just not that simple. We can't keep giving away imaginary money. It will all collapse in inflation eventually. We need to fix our spiraling debt before it become unfixable.

Originally Posted by the machine

Well that is much better. So regardless of wether you are right or totaly wrong it would be our duty to take what you say as gospel truth????

Now you sound like the Republican party.

Actually it would be more like the Communist Party in, say, N. Korea. But hey, if I'm gonna be king, I might as well have fun like the leftists.

[walleyfisher]

Originally Posted by Vette_Newb

Without a printing press, they are gone anyway.

Note:

For the amount of money our government is spending EACH day, the printing press are incapibale of printing that much so the Fed "Creates" the money on comuter legers

[c6vettedude]

Originally Posted by Junkman2008

had the bill NOT been passed and had we went over the cliff, someone else would have titled it, "President Obama Sends the US Over the Fiscal Cliff!"

NAILED IT! As I said in the past, if BO jumped in the ocean and saved the life of a child, there'd be some who'd object.

[the machine]

Originally Posted by Texdentist

Government spending goes all over the world. The money comes from all over the world. When we can't collect or print enough, there will be economic collapse. I guess I'll let you tell me what your point is. If your trying to say all the money comes from here and stays here, it's just not that simple. We can't keep giving away imaginary money. It will all collapse in inflation eventually. We need to fix our spiraling debt before it become unfixable.

well I guess I should have been more clear...

Every dollar that the government spends goes to a job for someone. The vast majority of which are right here in the USA. If that money is not spent that job is gone. If there is no private job to take the place of that government funded job, and you stop spending that government money the person in that job becomes an unemployed person. Now we can debate all we want about the responsabilities of that person but in the end if there is no job for that person there is no job and unless we are willing to see people starve to death on our streets, they become our problem.

The more we cut spending when private jobs are not being created the more people that don't work and pay taxes. With less people that pay taxes less tax can be collected. So now the money we saved by not spending for that government job, means less money we get in taxes and more we have to spend to take care of a person without a job( again unless we are willing to see people starve to death on our streets) Furthermore that person who is not working is also not buying much so the jobs of those serving those people who are no longer working are lost too.

When the economy is growing strong and private industry needs more and more workers, that is the time to shift those working at government expense to the private side of the ledger. This is the only way to cut government spending without going into the vicious spiral that cutting spending in a weak economy would bring.

Now once that spending has been reduced and those jobs have successfully been moved over to private employement, then we should do everything possible to keep those jobs on the private side, and keep government spending under control.

[C5 Dude]

Originally Posted by the machine

well I guess I should have been more clear...

Every dollar that the government spends goes to a job for someone. The vast majority of which are right here in the USA. If that money is not spent that job is gone. If there is no private job to take the place of that government funded job, and you stop spending that government money the person in that job becomes an unemployed person. Now we can debate all we want about the responsabilities of that person but in the end if there is no job for that person there is no job and unless we are willing to see people starve to death on our streets, they become our problem.

The more we cut spending when private jobs are not being created the more people that don't work and pay taxes. With less people that pay taxes less tax can be collected. So now the money we saved by not spending for that government job, means less money we get in taxes and more we have to spend to take care of a person without a job( again unless we are willing to see people starve to death on our streets) Furthermore that person who is not working is also not buying much so the jobs of those serving those people who are no longer working are lost too.

When the economy is growing strong and private industry needs more and more workers, that is the time to shift those working at government expense to the private side of the ledger. This is the only way to cut government spending without going into the vicious spiral that cutting spending in a weak economy would bring.

Now once that spending has been reduced and those jobs have successfully been moved over to private employement, then we should do everything possible to keep those jobs on the private side, and keep government spending under control.

I have not agreed with you on alot, but I do on this. You can't cut spending with a meat cleaver and you can't do it over night. You have to reduce the goverment work force gradually over time. It can be done through rifts and just letting positions expire after retirements. I'm sure there are other clever ways that I am not smart enuff to think of or remember too.

BUT....we do have to start the cuts, and we do have to try to fill all government needs with private sector resources first (with fair bidding). The only time we don't do that is when we are talking national defense. That will always be the governments job as it should be.

[the machine]

Originally Posted by C5 Dude

I have not agreed with you on alot, but I do on this. You can't cut spending with a meat cleaver and you can't do it over night. You have to reduce the goverment work force gradually over time. It can be done through rifts and just letting positions expire after retirements. I'm sure there are other clever ways that I am not smart enuff to think of or remember too.

BUT....we do have to start the cuts, and we do have to try to fill all government needs with private sector resources first (with fair bidding). The only time we don't do that is when we are talking national defense. That will always be the governments job as it should be.

I am sure we agree on a lot more than either of us think...but you have trouble with my Jersey accent, and I have trouble with your Texas drawl....so lots gets lost in translation.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by the machine

Ok so now that we have come to an agreement that both parties are to blame, then we can talk more seriously.

You can actually stop right there. If anyone reading this thread can't figure that out then you have no business discussing politics. Stick to crayons and try and stay between the lines.

[c6vettedude]

Exactly! I've been trying to tell folks that for years, and from day 1 on DC. When people stop blaming and get together, only then will any meaningful change happen. I guess most in america are content with blaming and sinking at the same time.

[C6 CRUZR]

Originally Posted by the machine

Every dollar that the government spends
goes to a job for someone. The vast majority of which
are right here in the USA.
If that money is not spent that job is gone.

I'm speechless.
I have never heard anything more absurd
in my entire life. It's no wonder this country is
screwed!!!!

[the machine]

Originally Posted by C6 CRUZR

I'm speechless.
I have never heard anything more absurd
in my entire life. It's no wonder this country is
screwed!!!!

Well by all means enlighten us then. Where do our tax dollars go???

[walleyfisher]

Originally Posted by the machine

Well by all means enlighten us then. Where do our tax dollars go???

To people like Al Gore

[the machine]

Originally Posted by walleyfisher

To people like Al Gore

Thnaks for your input but I was asking cruzr.

[C6 CRUZR]

Originally Posted by the machine

Well by all means enlighten us then. Where do our tax dollars go???

It's pretty obvious they go down the sewer.
I can't believe I have been asked to explain this
to someone who claims they own & operate their
own business.

Rather than explain it, allow me to ask you
a few of questions.

1. What does government produce?

2. How many government jobs would you
categorize as "overhead"?

3. In your business, do you try to control
your "overhead" expenses, especially with
regard to non-productive labor?

4. If I told you we had a government agency
with a budget of nearly $30 Billion, that
employed around 16,000 employees and
thousands of contract employees, whose
designed purpose was to make the U.S.
energy independent and this agency continues
to grow yearly without showing any results,
would you consider it beneficial to add
more employees to that agency?

[the machine]

Originally Posted by C6 CRUZR

It's pretty obvious they go down the sewer.
I can't believe I have been asked to explain this
to someone who claims they own & operate their
own business.

Rather than explain it, allow me to ask you
a few of questions.

1. What does government produce?

2. How many government jobs would you
categorize as "overhead"?

3. In your business, do you try to control
your "overhead" expenses, especially with
regard to non-productive labor?

4. If I told you we had a government agency
with a budget of nearly $30 Billion, that
employed around 16,000 employees and
thousands of contract employees, whose
designed purpose was to make the U.S.
energy independent and this agency continues
to grow yearly without showing any results,
would you consider it beneficial to add
more employees to that agency?

Well while you bask in your snarkiness, you have only managed to prove my point. Thank you. Every argumnet you make is valid and I agree with the need to get rid of those jobs, but they are all jobs non the less.

The government does not produce anything....but they create lots of jobs. Wether or not those jobs are of value to you or me is not the point.

As for overhead, lots of government jobs are overhead and even in business there is a need for some overhead. As any good business man knows.

In my business I control my overhead very tightly and carry as little non-productive labor as possible. But then again I am not the government. I am a for profit company. The government is not. It is not the governments job to be profitable and likely anybody who would have to compete with the government for business would be very angry if it were to get into any for profit business.

But lets examine for a minute where all these wastefull government jobs come from. The president under whom more government jobs were created still stands today as Ronald Reagan. The second highest creator of government jobs was George W Bush.

Why did they creat those jobs??? Because they wanted to expand the economy. Now I do not like to see the government expand the economy by creating government jobs, but these presidents did so.

Today we could simply get rid of everyone of those government jobs. But as I stated before, where would they go work??? If they cannot get a private sector job, they become our problem. Rather than a tax paying asset, they become a benift recieving loss to the economy. And as they lose the ability to buy goods and services, the economy loses even more private sector jobs as people who would be providing goods and services to those government workers are now also no longer needed.

Don't get me wrong. I agree that the 16,000 jobs and those thousands more contractors who are trying to make us energy independent, could be scaled way down and maybe even eliminated, but if that was done in a weak economy with no private employer to hire them it would simply drag the economy down and we would lose many times the $30 billion it costs to employ them.

So you see we realy agree completely on the problem....but the solution is what it seems to me that you have not thought through. You have to transition huge numbers of employees from the public sector to the private sector, but it has to be done in such a way that you do not kill the private sector, or you lose all the benifit of removing those workers from the public sector. Can we at least agree on this.