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Old 01-07-2013, 01:04 PM   #46
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Interestingly enough, the bill that the Senate passed, HR 1, was orignally a House bill, House Resolution 1 entitled, "Making appropriations for the Department of Defense and the other departments and agencies of the Government for the fiscal year ending September 30, 2011, and for other purposes”, passed on February 19, 2011.... a full 20 months before Sandy hit. The Senate did not give consideration on it until December 13, 2012 when it magically became "Hurricane Sandy Supplemental Appropriations Bill".

Now the real question is, why did the Senate choose to act on an appropriations bill that it had otherwise left to die? Why was it left to die orignally? Because it was uncompromisingly flawed, partisan, and a failure........ basically it was a pork buffet. Here's the best summary I have read describing the Senae's actions in passing this bill:

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Appropriations bills, however, are designed to appropriate. In other words, they exist to allocate money. Spending money, amazingly, is something that the Senate cannot do alone. Budgets have to come from the House. The upper chamber needed a car to drive but did not have the keys. So they hot-wired it through the House’s legislation in hilariously ridiculous fashion

- John Aronno
But if Rep King and Gov. Christie want to lay blame at the feet of John Boehner they can continue to do so but at the expense of the fleecing of tax payers in an attempt to get their money without regard to the wasteful spending for others.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:08 PM   #47
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You still haven't showed me that anybody has been denied money due to the government not supplying this bill.

NJ budget is something like $30B a year and you are complaining that the Congress didn't just ram thru a $60B bailout without looking into it first. The only ones making this an emergency situation are the pork stuffing democrates.
First of all NJ budget has absolutly nothing to do with the amount of damage that occured.

Second the original $82 billion request was for both NJ and NY, and the $60.4 billion was also for both NJ and NY.

This request had first been sent to the House which is supposed to deal with this but it never went anywhere, so they sent the same request to the president who then cut the request fron the $82 billion to $60.4 Billion. The president sent that request to the senate on 12-6-12.

And as I add up the pork that anybody describes... the pork adds up to about $218 million or about one 5th of a Billion dollars. So as I said take away another full Billion and pass it...but no Boehner had to get his votes for Speaker.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:17 PM   #48
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First of all NJ budget has absolutly nothing to do with the amount of damage that occured.
It does matter as to comparing size of the money being "gifted". ITS ALOT OF MONEY and shouldn't be just blindly passed at midnight without no over sight.

You still have failed to show me why this is such an emergency when nobody has been denied payment due to lack of funds
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:29 PM   #49
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It does matter as to comparing size of the money being "gifted". ITS ALOT OF MONEY and shouldn't be just blindly passed at midnight without no over sight.

You still have failed to show me why this is such an emergency when nobody has been denied payment due to lack of funds
walleyfisher, You are using logic with machine.
It will NEVER work.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:31 PM   #50
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Because that's the very WORST way to spend disaster funds -- turn over 60 billion to federal agencies and watch it walk away in the hands of thousands of opportunists while the government is too busy handing out money to pay attention to where it goes. It needs to be deliberate and doled out in portions over time. They can't spend it all in the first month anyway. It takes years to rebuild, so dole it out over years. Certainly there needs to be a large start-up amount to begin to meet the most urgent needs. I think $9B is a pretty good place to start with that. That is a LOT of money, and the feds will have trouble giving it away in 6 months.
The governors of NJ and NY did not just throw a dart at a board and come up with a damage estimate. They had profesional adjusters looking at the damage and they have actual costs. Those estimates and those costs came to $82 billion. Obama reduced it to $60.4billion.

The $9 billion does nothing for the large projects that have to be done but cannot even be started without funding sources. You cannot start a project until you have identified the funding source. The $9 billion only allows for the flood insurance program to keep paying losses of which there were over 215,000 cases, and the current funding before the $9 billion would cover about 35,000.
All of the other projects are not covered by flood insurance, such as beach restoration, and removal of materails from coastal waters, which is causing more damage since now every time it rains areas that never flooded are flooding and causing more damage due to the billions of cubic feet of sand and other materials that where thrown into the local water ways, by Sandy.

I will tell you one thing for sure the continuing debate over funding for this disaster is going to cause more damage to the republican party, because again the things they say are insulting to the people who live in this area. It is simply amazing how the republican party can alienate people by insulting them and then wonder why they lose elections.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:38 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by walleyfisher View Post
It does matter as to comparing size of the money being "gifted". ITS ALOT OF MONEY and shouldn't be just blindly passed at midnight without no over sight.

You still have failed to show me why this is such an emergency when nobody has been denied payment due to lack of funds
Well Lousianna's budget was under $25 billion and was given $66 billion in under ten days. That bill ended up being over $100 billion.

As I have stated many times here, major projects like beach restoration and material removal from coastal waterways cannot begin until funding sources are identified. just as the levies around New Orleans could not be started until funding had been approved after Katrina.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:41 PM   #52
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You cannot start a project until you have identified the funding source.
Simply not true. When it comes to public works projects, they are routinely planned and engineered before money is allocated. A friend of mine was the chief engineer for this region of the state highway department. They have fully engineered plans for projects all over the region that they wait for state and federal funding to begin. Now in the case of a disaster, the process has to be sped up, but they don't wait for congress to allocate money to begin planning the needed projects, and believe me, other than debris removal, they won't be able to start major projects for months, because they don't have the plans on the board yet. But I guarantee those plans are being developed as we speak. There just isn't any compelling reason to fund the full $60B right up front. When Katrina happened there were articles a year after the event talking about how much trouble the government was having disbursing all the money alloted because there IS a process and there IS red tape. You just can't put an 18-wheeler full of money on main street and announce that anyone who is entitled to money, come get it. I will bet that they will not actually spend $30B in the first year of this disaster. There is no rush for financing other than enough to get the ball rolling.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:43 PM   #53
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walleyfisher, You are using logic with machine.
It will NEVER work.
Funny logic woked just fine when we discussing the federal debt...but then of course you just slink away when proven wrong.

Why do you have to attack people when we are talking about issues. Are you so small that you must try to get alies to fight your battle for you. Why not just speak like a man about the issues and let them speak for themselves.

I think everybody here knows that I understand logic perfectly well....but what you spout is far from logic...it is simple oppinion. There is a big difference between oppinion and logic....logicaly.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:57 PM   #54
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Simply not true. When it comes to public works projects, they are routinely planned and engineered before money is allocated. A friend of mine was the chief engineer for this region of the state highway department. They have fully engineered plans for projects all over the region that they wait for state and federal funding to begin. Now in the case of a disaster, the process has to be sped up, but they don't wait for congress to allocate money to begin planning the needed projects, and believe me, other than debris removal, they won't be able to start major projects for months, because they don't have the plans on the board yet. But I guarantee those plans are being developed as we speak. There just isn't any compelling reason to fund the full $60B right up front. When Katrina happened there were articles a year after the event talking about how much trouble the government was having disbursing all the money alloted because there IS a process and there IS red tape. You just can't put an 18-wheeler full of money on main street and announce that anyone who is entitled to money, come get it. I will bet that they will not actually spend $30B in the first year of this disaster. There is no rush for financing other than enough to get the ball rolling.
Tex you say on the one hand that they can start planning but cannot start the projects, but what we have to do is start the projects. The planning is always done first but does require quite a bit of funding itself. But the planning is done first so the projects can go out for public bid. But again, the funding must be identified before you can go out for public bid. These are things that I dealt with directly when I was mayor and they are all in place to ensure that once a project is identified it cannot be unfunded because your buddy didn't win the bid.
The materials in the waterways do not take huge planning it simply means dredging the materials out and putting them back where they were. That work could start immediatly if funding was in place...but since it isn't people are faced with new flooding every time it rains now.
Businesses also need to know where the funding will come from to rebuild. Many businesses that were destroyed did not have flood insurance, because places flooded that were not flood zones. Those businesses are waiting to see if they will be getting funding to rebuild or not. If they don't many will jjust shut down, because they would not qualify for loans for this type of issue.

The $9 billion is a small piece that covers only a small part of the problems we face.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:24 PM   #55
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The $9 billion is a small piece that covers only a small part of the problems we face.
Of course it is only a small piece. But the purpose of the $9B is to be able to START all of the necessary projects. If it's anything like Katrina, individual homeowners will get a relatively small check soon to help them with living expenses, but it will be months or more before they get a check for their entire house. It's regrettable that there is no faster way to do it. But handing out money involves a lot of paperwork, and you can only get so many people working on it at one time. I feel for these people whose homes and businesses were destroyed. But there is no quick fix. Complete funding at this point would not put more money in the hands of people. It just can't be done that quickly. When those of us in tornado country get hit, there are perhaps a few dozen homes destroyed or if it's really bad, a few hundred. The system can deal with level very well. But when tens of thousands of buildings are destroyed, there is no quick fix either in terms of funding or in actually cleaning up and rebuilding. It will take years for that to happen in this case.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:48 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Of course it is only a small piece. But the purpose of the $9B is to be able to START all of the necessary projects. If it's anything like Katrina, individual homeowners will get a relatively small check soon to help them with living expenses, but it will be months or more before they get a check for their entire house. It's regrettable that there is no faster way to do it. But handing out money involves a lot of paperwork, and you can only get so many people working on it at one time. I feel for these people whose homes and businesses were destroyed. But there is no quick fix. Complete funding at this point would not put more money in the hands of people. It just can't be done that quickly. When those of us in tornado country get hit, there are perhaps a few dozen homes destroyed or if it's really bad, a few hundred. The system can deal with level very well. But when tens of thousands of buildings are destroyed, there is no quick fix either in terms of funding or in actually cleaning up and rebuilding. It will take years for that to happen in this case.
Tex if speed is not important...why was it so urgent to pass funding for Katrina in under 10 days. Of course then the pubs held the whitehouse and both houses of congress. There was no discusion of holding up the funding. Because deficits just didn't matter. It was the good ole Bush days and all the pork just didn't matter.

It seems more and more that the republican party has simply become the confederate party. Anything in the south gets whatever it wants without question. Anything in the north...welll we have to look closely.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:09 PM   #57
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Tex if speed is not important...why was it so urgent to pass funding for Katrina in under 10 days. Of course then the pubs held the whitehouse and both houses of congress. There was no discusion of holding up the funding. Because deficits just didn't matter. It was the good ole Bush days and all the pork just didn't matter.

It seems more and more that the republican party has simply become the confederate party. Anything in the south gets whatever it wants without question. Anything in the north...welll we have to look closely.
The final bill for Katrina was not passed until
December 16th, 2005. According to my fuzzy math,
that was 3 1/2 months after it hit land.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:32 PM   #58
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The final bill for Katrina was not passed until
December 16th, 2005. According to my fuzzy math,
that was 3 1/2 months after it hit land.
As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again.." using those pesky facts.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:15 PM   #59
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The final bill for Katrina was not passed until
December 16th, 2005. According to my fuzzy math,
that was 3 1/2 months after it hit land.
Aren't you just the tricky lawyer. Yes the final bill was not passed for a while, but on the second of September...just four days after katrina a $10.5 billion emergency fund was passed through congress and signed by GWB. On September 8th another bill for $51.8 billion was signed by Bush. The final bill brought the total to $100 billion.

So according to your fuzzy logic your attempt to paint this situation falsly has backfired badly.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:16 PM   #60
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As Ronald Reagan would say, "There you go again.." using those pesky facts.
I think Reagan would have said there you go again trying to lie your way out of the facts.
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