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Old 01-07-2013, 11:33 AM   #16
c6vettedude
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Originally Posted by ddregehr View Post
Crucifixion is an ancient method of deliberately slow and painful execution in which the condemned person is tied or nailed to a large wooden cross and left to hang until dead.
Crucifixion was used among the Seleucids, Carthaginians, and Romans from about the 6th century BC to the 4th century AD. In the year 337, Emperor Constantine I abolished it in the Roman Empire out of veneration for Jesus Christ, the most famous victim of crucifixion.[1][2] It was also used as a form of execution in Japan for criminals, inflicted also on some Christians.

1. a b Encyclopędia Britannica. "Encyclopaedia Britannica Online: crucifixion". Britannica.com. Retrieved 2009-12-19.
2. "Crucifixion". Mb-soft.com. Retrieved 2009-12-19.

c6vettedude, so what you are saying is you believe nothing you read except what you write because everything is slanted in some form or fashion? The cross was an instrument of capital punishment that turned into a religious symbol around 33 AD, because of the death of Jesus of Nazareth. There are enough historical documents available that this could be proven in a modern court of law.

It is your opinion that Barton is left leaning and his proof is tainted in some fashion, but I would be interest in hearing a counter to his arguments from other documents sources. He owns many of the original manuscripts, letters and documents from our countries founding fathers. He uses words that they have written in their own hand to make his point. What I find interesting is that everyone talks about the need for the separation between church and state and yet this is not in our constitution or any government documents. It is mentioned in a personal letter from Thomas Jefferson regarding a separate issue all together. It was meant to be a one sided separation. The government was not to interfere with the affairs of the Church, but the church should have influence in the affairs of government. Thomas Jefferson asked for a separation of Government From Church, but not vis versa.

Joseph Story one of the first Supreme Court Justices stated,

"There is not a truth to be gathered from history more certain, or more momentous, than this: that civil liberty cannot long be separated from religious liberty without danger, and ultimately without destruction to both. Wherever religious liberty exists, it will, first or last, bring in and establish political liberty."

When the government starts limiting our religious freedom by taking prayer out of schools and limiting what pastors can say from the pulpit, our civil liberty is in jeopardy.
The cross wasn't an issue, not sure why people are keying in on that, I only mentioned that it was adopted by church leaders from pagans...as is all other christian symbols. Yes.. have done lots of reading on it's origins and uses.

Is is not true that most, if not all history is written on a slant? Why else would the right rail against liberal colleges and authors. That's just something that is going to happen, and to deny that fact is to deny reality. There are plenty of folks who've done debunking work with regards to Mr. Barton, but the fact is, almost anything can be debunked...because almost every story has been told from different vantage points. In the end, it's all about what you choose to believe. I think that I made it clear that I didn't have anything against the guy.

With regards to the "founders", there's plenty proof in black and white that many were deist. Not going to argue the point, because there's plenty info to say they were devout christians. It's all about what you want to believe. Though Thomas Paine's book "Age of Reason" explains a lot.

As for the character Jesus Christ, this story goes back to the Ancient Sumerians (Horus) as well. The first council of Nicea and the council in 325 AD spells out a lot.

There's a reason that christianity has trinity, that's because the majority pagan population worshipped many gods, one just wasn't enough. It really doens't take a lot to figure things out, but then religion is based in fear, and rules by fear.

What people choose to believe is purely up to them, as I've said many times, I have friends of all religious and spiritual beliefs. I would be a fool to judge someone based on their religious beliefs.

As for the Supreme Court, they instrumental in retaining slavery in the U.S. Anyone, any group, or institution that support/s/ed such evil can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, I don't care who they claim to worship.
Jmho...
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by c6vettedude View Post
As for the character Jesus Christ, this story goes back to the Ancient Sumerians (Horus) as well. The first council of Nicea and the council in 325 AD spells out a lot.
Excuse me but historical scholars agree that a man/
a teacher (Jesus Christ) did live and die at the time of
of the "divine" Jesus.
One can argue that he was just another man
and not the divine Christ but if he was a "character",
he was either a liar or a lunatic.

Quote:
There's a reason that christianity has trinity, that's because the majority pagan population worshipped many gods, one just wasn't enough. It really doens't take a lot to figure things out, but then religion is based in fear, and rules by fear.
No offense but I don't think you understand the Trinity.
There is but "One" God in Christianity, not three!
If a guy named Joe was married and had a child,
he would have three identities -
He would be Joe.
He would be a husband.
He would be a father.
Yet his primary identity would remain as Joe.
To suggest the Trinity came from a need to replicate
the many pagan Gods goes beyond obscure.

Quote:
As for the Supreme Court, they instrumental in retaining slavery in the U.S. Anyone, any group, or institution that support/s/ed such evil can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, I don't care who they claim to worship.
Jmho...
The only group that seems hell bent on retaining
slavery is the democratic party. I guess that stems
from the fact they fought so hard to maintain slavery
during the civil war.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by C6 CRUZR View Post
Excuse me but historical scholars agree that a man/
a teacher (Jesus Christ) did live and die at the time of
of the "divine" Jesus.
One can argue that he was just another man
and not the divine Christ but if he was a "character",
he was either a liar or a lunatic.


No offense but I don't think you understand the Trinity.
There is but "One" God in Christianity, not three!
If a guy named Joe was married and had a child,
he would have three identities -
He would be Joe.
He would be a husband.
He would be a father.
Yet his primary identity would remain as Joe.
To suggest the Trinity came from a need to replicate
the many pagan Gods goes beyond obscure.


The only group that seems hell bent on retaining
slavery is the democratic party. I guess that stems
from the fact they fought so hard to maintain slavery
during the civil war.
Historical scholars who support what?? Even OJ was able to find a few lawyers who thought he had nothing to do with the murders. Scientist and scholars of all stripes fall on different sides of every issue imaginable.

First off "Jesus" wasn't even the original name, if the name is wrong, I wonder what else could be wrong?? Look to the first European Pharoah of Egypt.

Just do check of the word "Trinity" In christianity, it means "the father", "the son" or and "holy spirit". I was Baptist from the age of 5, so I know a lil bit. The council was clearly trying to figure out how to make christianity palatable to a majority-people (Pagans) who worshipped many gods. The Trinity was the compromise.

In the European world, slavery was ordained by the Catholic church's pope Innocent VIII. Forget democrat or republican, because if you were christian, then you were taught that this was the God's order of things by the christian church...regardless of your political view. Darwin didn't make things better either by saying that it was the "natural" order in nature for blacks to be subserviant to whites.

Personally, I don't mind talking about the history of slavery, but regardless of how anyone felt about it, whether your rep or dem, everyone is on a plantation and are slaves to the banking system today. If you've followed my postings, I've said many, many times that NOT ONE party cares about anyone! Only a FOOL thinks that members of whatever party they worship cares one iota about them or their children. I'll be the first to tell you the ills of the dems, then I'd move on the Pubs...what's really the difference.

There are several books written about the supreme court and their decisions regarding slavery. Afterall, it lasted for hundreds of years... did it not?? So obviously the highest court in the land must've been ok with it.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:03 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by c6vettedude View Post
Historical scholars who support what?? Even OJ was able to find a few lawyers who thought he had nothing to do with the murders. Scientist and scholars of all stripes fall on different sides of every issue imaginable.

First off "Jesus" wasn't even the original name, if the name is wrong, I wonder what else could be wrong?? Look to the first European Pharoah of Egypt.

Just do check of the word "Trinity" In christianity, it means "the father", "the son" or and "holy spirit". I was Baptist from the age of 5, so I know a lil bit. The council was clearly trying to figure out how to make christianity palatable to a majority-people (Pagans) who worshipped many gods. The Trinity was the compromise.

In the European world, slavery was ordained by the Catholic church's pope Innocent VIII. Forget democrat or republican, because if you were christian, then you were taught that this was the God's order of things by the christian church...regardless of your political view. Darwin didn't make things better either by saying that it was the "natural" order in nature for blacks to be subserviant to whites.

Personally, I don't mind talking about the history of slavery, but regardless of how anyone felt about it, whether your rep or dem, everyone is on a plantation and are slaves to the banking system today. If you've followed my postings, I've said many, many times that NOT ONE party cares about anyone! Only a FOOL thinks that members of whatever party they worship cares one iota about them or their children. I'll be the first to tell you the ills of the dems, then I'd move on the Pubs...what's really the difference.

There are several books written about the supreme court and their decisions regarding slavery. Afterall, it lasted for hundreds of years... did it not?? So obviously the highest court in the land must've been ok with it.
Sorry but I will have to end this and file your
latest ramblings with my files on crop circles, Bigfoot
and chem trails.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:11 PM   #20
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Sorry but I will have to end this and file your
latest ramblings with my files on crop circles, Bigfoot
and chem trails.
That's perfectly fine and respect your opinons and beliefs. You're laying out your side, and I'm laying out mine. It's not like I'm saying awful things about you because of your beliefs. Why are you bringing up crop circles and bigfoot??

So tell me, what do you think about a muslim getting 42 virgins if he kills in the name of religion?? Tell me you don't think that's absurd and ridiculous. Most religious traditions are absurd to people of all stripes... and christianity isn't immune.

Like I said, I don't judge anyone for their beliefs,.. if they're judging me on mines.. then oh well. Life goes on ya know.

So much is written and documented with regards to the origins of the basic 3 religions... at the end of the day, choose to believe what you wish.

I've always studied more with regards to christianity, because I grew up baptist... although it wasn't like I had a choice to stay home either.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:22 PM   #21
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I agree and that is why I have found it necessary to
avoid or "assume" that any specific church doctrine
is correct. Yes I belong to a church and yes I accept
their basic doctrine but I do not believe it is
100% accurate.
When you consider that at the time of Jesus,
the Greek language was the most widely used form
of speech and writing. That said, it wasn't long before
there were Coptic translations and problems arise
with these because of the various dialects such as
Bohairic and Sahidic. Northern Egypt used the
Bohairic dialect and Southern Egypt used the
Sahidic dialect. Both Clement of Alexandria and
Origen, who taught in the northern city of
Alexandrea and the area around the Nile delta,
probably used these translations as well as the
Syriac and Old Latin translations of the Greek writings.
Considering all this took place before an English
translation was even a thought, it's a wonder we
have anything close to a factual record.

To put this in perspective, we have people right now
arguing over the meaning of the 2nd amendment
to the constitution. If people can't agree on the 2nd amendment, written in English, just a (relatively)
short time ago. it becomes clear on why religion
can sometimes be a divisive topic.


I don't think all symbols were. I think some were and some are simply a coincidence.
Take for example the Christian fish symbol that some
claim was co opted from pagans.
The theme of Jesus' disciples as "fishers of men"
and the Greek word for "fish" made an acronym
that spelled out a title for Jesus Christ. There is
absolutely no correlation here to what the pagans
viewed the fish as.
As for the fish, if you look at the Pope's hat, you can see that it is a fish with it's mouth opened. This originated from the Pagan god Mithra, which was commonly referred to the fish god. That's why references to fish was plenty...so the correlation between fish and pagans is direct.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:18 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by c6vettedude View Post
As for the fish, if you look at the Pope's hat, you can see that it is a fish with it's mouth opened. This originated from the Pagan god Mithra, which was commonly referred to the fish god. That's why references to fish was plenty...so the correlation between fish and pagans is direct.
I don't know who or what is your source but the
evidence for these supposed parallels comes after the
second century, so any borrowing would have to come
from Christianity, not the other way around.
And when you look carefully, the similarities vanish.
Everything about the coming of Jesus is foretold in the
old testament. Given that all of the Christian
themes are found in the Old Testament and the
Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these
pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish
ideas found in the Old Testament.
Therefore, I must respectfully state that
most everything you have stated is false.

Mithra came long after the O.T. was written and
to suggest the Pope copied a silly hat is laughable.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:27 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by C6 CRUZR View Post
I don't know who or what is your source but the
evidence for these supposed parallels comes after the
second century, so any borrowing would have to come
from Christianity, not the other way around.
And when you look carefully, the similarities vanish.
Everything about the coming of Jesus is foretold in the
old testament. Given that all of the Christian
themes are found in the Old Testament and the
Old Testament was begun around 2000 B.C. and completed around 400 B.C., we can then conclude that these
pagan religions actually borrowed from Jewish
ideas found in the Old Testament.
Therefore, I must respectfully state that
most everything you have stated is false.

Mithra came long after the O.T. was written and
to suggest the Pope copied a silly hat is laughable.
Well we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I will say that
if you look all the way back to the Sumerians and beyond...just do the footwork, you'll see that the stories are nothing new. The story of son being born to a virgin..dying then being raised on the 3rd day goes back to the Sumerians, only the 1st letter of the names were changed. This story is repeated in at least 15 different civiliations.

Pagan religions have been around since the dawn of man, so it stands to reason that all of the symbology associated with today's were religions were copied in some way. So tell me, what does a bunny rabbit have to do with christianity? That would be due to a pagan fertility god. The christmas tree, mistle toe, caroling and all those traditions?? caroling came from when the pagans would go house to house singing naked. Fact is, every symbol and tradition in christianity is of pagan origins. If you keep digging, you'll find that to be true... if not, then that's ok too. There are many sources on the subject and of course their findings will be different according to the author.

So I will pose the same question to you that didn't get answered by others in this thread, how much sense does getting 42 virgins make if you die a martyr? There are tons of things in all religions that are just downright silly and yes.. laughable and make no sense at all. Thomas Paine's Age of Reason is a very good book..and telling of how many of the founders felt...some openly, some not so openly.

When you're part of the following though, I understand the loyalty, I've been there. For me talking about religion is like trying to convince a democrat or a conservative to see beyone the veil, and that the system that is in place is not what you think it is, and that the system is not for our benefit, but for our detriment...., but loyalty often times impedes logic.

Politics is very touchy subject that I don't mind getting into, because it's possible at times to sway or be swayed on views, ideas and subject matter. Religion is a 100 x's more tricky and personal, and trying to get someone to see your point quite frankly is a waste of time.

Imho, God, the Great Spirit or whatever one chooses to call it, lives within all of us. The ability to distinguish between right and wrong is built into all of us. We all know that it's wrong to kill, sleep with someone else's wife, steal etc. etc.

There's plenty of info out there... tons actually, but in the end, just as in politics, people need to believe certain things in life to get them through the day, and imho there's certainly nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by c6vettedude; 01-08-2013 at 09:12 AM.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:41 PM   #24
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Did you guys go to seminary school? Oh, I know now, you both dropped out of monk school.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:45 PM   #25
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I don't think they would've let me in lol.
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Old 01-08-2013, 06:46 PM   #26
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Christoph Luxemberg (pseudonym),

According to Islamic tradition, "hur" is the equivalent of "houri", which does mean virgin, but Luxemberg argues that this is clearly a misreading of the Qur'an. For starters, the idea of virgins contradicts the Qur'an's promise that the blessed will enter Paradise with their wives (43:70), unless the earthly wives are supposed to watch in rage and sorrow as their husbands cavort with the heavenly virgins...ishalla! Philological analysis indicates that the Qur'an does not offer such a contradictory promise. After examining the rasm, the other contexts in which "hur" appears in the Qur'an, and the contemporary usage of the word "houris", Luxemberg concludes that the famous passages refer not to virgins but instead to white raisins or grapes.
Yes, fruit. Strange as that may seem, given all the attention paid to the Qur'an's supposed promises of virgins in Paradise, white raisins were a prized delicacy in that region. As such, Luxemberg suggest, they actually make a more fitting symbol of the reward of Paradise than the promise of sexual favors from virgins.


Muslims don't "just" willingly martyr themselves for virgin grapes. The Qur'an teaches that all able men must be willing to lay down their lives for the spread of Islam.

But with your piercing sagacity, you already knew that.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:03 PM   #27
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Faith.....

It all matters not to me. I belive in Christ. I believe he was the son of God. I believe he died for me. I believe that allows me to be close to God.

Maybe that makes me seem silly to some, but I believe.

I don't judge others who don't because Christ says I shouldn't. I am not to judge them, or persecute them. I am to show them my belief by leading a life that is shining in example and that will bring them closer to Christ by doing so. You have to move toward him, not the other way around.

Again, maybe that seems silly to you. But if I die and there is no God, I have still lived a very good life and one that will have given me great pleasure and inner piece that I find is not possible for those who do not have any FAITH at all.

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Old 01-08-2013, 07:11 PM   #28
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It all matters not to me. I belive in Christ. I believe he was the son of God. I believe he died for me. I believe that allows me to be close to God.

Maybe that makes me seem silly to some, but I believe.

I don't judge others who don't because Christ says I shouldn't. I am not to judge them, or persecute them. I am to show them my belief by leading a life that is shining in example and that will bring them closer to Christ by doing so. You have to move toward him, not the other way around.

Again, maybe that seems silly to you. But if I die and there is no God, I have still lived a very good life and one that will have given me great pleasure and inner piece that I find is not possible for those who do not have any FAITH at all.



Amen
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:15 PM   #29
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Christoph Luxemberg (pseudonym),

According to Islamic tradition, "hur" is the equivalent of "houri", which does mean virgin, but Luxemberg argues that this is clearly a misreading of the Qur'an. For starters, the idea of virgins contradicts the Qur'an's promise that the blessed will enter Paradise with their wives (43:70), unless the earthly wives are supposed to watch in rage and sorrow as their husbands cavort with the heavenly virgins...ishalla! Philological analysis indicates that the Qur'an does not offer such a contradictory promise. After examining the rasm, the other contexts in which "hur" appears in the Qur'an, and the contemporary usage of the word "houris", Luxemberg concludes that the famous passages refer not to virgins but instead to white raisins or grapes.
Yes, fruit. Strange as that may seem, given all the attention paid to the Qur'an's supposed promises of virgins in Paradise, white raisins were a prized delicacy in that region. As such, Luxemberg suggest, they actually make a more fitting symbol of the reward of Paradise than the promise of sexual favors from virgins.


Muslims don't "just" willingly martyr themselves for virgin grapes. The Qur'an teaches that all able men must be willing to lay down their lives for the spread of Islam.

But with your piercing sagacity, you already knew that.
I have read the Qu'ran, but since it's not a religion that I practiced, I haven't done much research on it's origins. That's good stuff though! Yep, all expected to die if need be. You have any other info?? I'd be very interested.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:21 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by C5 Dude View Post
It all matters not to me. I belive in Christ. I believe he was the son of God. I believe he died for me. I believe that allows me to be close to God.

Maybe that makes me seem silly to some, but I believe.

I don't judge others who don't because Christ says I shouldn't. I am not to judge them, or persecute them. I am to show them my belief by leading a life that is shining in example and that will bring them closer to Christ by doing so. You have to move toward him, not the other way around.

Again, maybe that seems silly to you. But if I die and there is no God, I have still lived a very good life and one that will have given me great pleasure and inner piece that I find is not possible for those who do not have any FAITH at all.

Exactly! It's whatever you believe. Politics is one thing but religion is definitely more personal, so I usually don't like to debate or talk about it too much, unless it's with people that I know personally. The last thing I want is for someone to say that I'm trying to force my beliefs on them. That's just not cool.

We all do things that seems silly or stupid to others. How many people in compact cars look at you like you're crazy because you have a powerful v8? Whatever it is we do, buy, or say etc., there will always be people who will sit in judgement without even knowing you. That's just the world we live in. Apologies if you were offended.
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