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Old 01-10-2013, 03:44 PM   #16
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The solution is for the house to shut it down. No compromise, no exceptions. Gov shutdown is fine. Either they have to live within their means.. or be done away with.
So you suggest the US default on it's debts????
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:49 PM   #17
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But I expect that the vast majority of those young people make less than the 2X poverty line or whatever ended up being the benchmark. That means you, me and Medicare seniors get to pay for their insurance. That doesn't exactly pump a whole lot of new money into the pool. It just takes more from the ones who are already paying or who have spent a lifetime paying.
Ok I doubt that the vast majority of young people make less that 2X the poverty line, but regardless....If what you have now is those same people going to the ER and not paying, then they are using the maost expensive part of our health care system to treat everyday health issues. If we pay for health insurance for those people, then the insurance companies force them to go to a regular doctor instead of the ER. That alone will save us alot of money.
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Old 01-10-2013, 03:51 PM   #18
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For a smart guy, you sure throw out some stupid answers.
care to point out what part of what I said is wrong.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:33 PM   #19
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So you suggest the US default on it's debts????
There will be no default. Even if the GOP actually shows to have some balls..
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:01 PM   #20
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There will be no default. Even if the GOP actually shows to have some balls..
Exactly. Debt service is 6% of our spending. Tax revenues will continue to support 60% of our spending. We will pay our lenders first and shut down government offices and services for a short time while the politicos duke it out. This fear mongering that we will default on our debt is purposely misleading. All of this happened in the mid 90's with no negative effects other than some government workers got an unexpected vacation
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:09 PM   #21
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All of this happened in the mid 90's with no negative effects other than some government workers got an unexpected vacation
If 60% of them got a permanent vacation, I would be able to afford more vacations. Bloated ass government needs to be stripped of most of it's revenue before it smothers us all. When they are working with a skeleton crew, they will have less time/money to meddle in our lives.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 01-10-2013, 07:06 PM   #22
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QE4 currently prints 85B/mo which is 1T/yr. Why not double that and balance the budget? Its no worse than adding 1T/yr to our 16T in debt -- it really isn't. If that sounds odd how do we think our debt is realistically going to get paid back? Here's how:

a) Printing money, and/or
b) Collapse/re-issue of the dollar, and/or
c) Negotiated settlement (partial default)

Of course we could also cut spending but American's don't want that AT ALL or they wouldn't have RE-elected Obamabucks.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:14 AM   #23
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Exactly. Debt service is 6% of our spending. Tax revenues will continue to support 60% of our spending. We will pay our lenders first and shut down government offices and services for a short time while the politicos duke it out. This fear mongering that we will default on our debt is purposely misleading. All of this happened in the mid 90's with no negative effects other than some government workers got an unexpected vacation
Ok I'll play. So congress says no increase in debt limit. The only way then to go forward is to cut government jobs by very large numbers. That is what Vett newb would like to see. Those jobs would have to go immediatly or we would continue to incur debt. Considering that our deficit is 1 trillion dollars, we would have to cut quite a few jobs. Lets assume that the average government employee makes $100,000 a year. Probably high but good round number. If my math is correct...that is 1 million jobs gone instantly. Now that is 1 million people on unemployment which the government has to pay out. Now again no debt increase means you have to fire more people so you can pay the unemployment. You also now lose more than 1 million tax payers so you have to fire more people to make up for the lost tax income. Now all the people with jobs that service those 1 million plus people will no longer have those customers, so they will also lose their jobs and no longer pay taxes and have to collect unemployment, so again the government would have to fire more people. And the cycle would continue untill we are in a full blown depresion.

Is that what you want Tex??? I know that is what newb wants, because he has prepared for that and makes a killing if this happens. But at what cost?? how do we ever come out of this???

And all of this ignors the complete unconstitutionality of cutting government spending in this way.

Now I know you say that won't happen. They will negociate thier way out of it...but simply having the government shut down would affect our credit rating. The last time we got close it cost us about $18 billion in added interest due to our lowered credit rating. How much would you guys have this one cost us.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:16 AM   #24
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Ok I'll play. So congress says no increase in debt limit. The only way then to go forward is to cut government jobs by very large numbers. That is what Vett newb would like to see. Those jobs would have to go immediatly or we would continue to incur debt.
This is the second thread I've seen where cutting federal government jobs has been thrown out there as the fix for the budget deficit, and I guess I don't understand. How much of the federal budget goes to salaries and benefits for currently working federal government employees?
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:01 AM   #25
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Ok I'll play. So congress says no increase in debt limit. The only way then to go forward is to cut government jobs by very large numbers. That is what Vett newb would like to see. Those jobs would have to go immediatly or we would continue to incur debt. Considering that our deficit is 1 trillion dollars, we would have to cut quite a few jobs. Lets assume that the average government employee makes $100,000 a year. Probably high but good round number. If my math is correct...that is 1 million jobs gone instantly. Now that is 1 million people on unemployment which the government has to pay out. Now again no debt increase means you have to fire more people so you can pay the unemployment. You also now lose more than 1 million tax payers so you have to fire more people to make up for the lost tax income. Now all the people with jobs that service those 1 million plus people will no longer have those customers, so they will also lose their jobs and no longer pay taxes and have to collect unemployment, so again the government would have to fire more people. And the cycle would continue untill we are in a full blown depresion.

Is that what you want Tex??? I know that is what newb wants, because he has prepared for that and makes a killing if this happens. But at what cost?? how do we ever come out of this???

And all of this ignors the complete unconstitutionality of cutting government spending in this way.

Now I know you say that won't happen. They will negociate thier way out of it...but simply having the government shut down would affect our credit rating. The last time we got close it cost us about $18 billion in added interest due to our lowered credit rating. How much would you guys have this one cost us.
No, no, no. The govt. worker cuts would be very temporary. It would simply cause serious negotiations with the Dems to hopefully result in some serious bipartisan work on long-term deficit reduction that would include some entitlement reform. Basically, Obama has shown that he has the power and intends not to compromise (the press doesn't stress HIS recalcitrance, does it?). So the only negotiating tool the Pubs have right now is the debt ceiling. They feel they have to use it or at least threaten to use it to wrangle some concessions from the Dems. That's normal politics, and they would not be representing their constituencies if they didn't at least TRY to turn the debt Titanic.
As for the credit rating - it's not an automatic that it will take a hit. If the Dems get with it and make some real effort to control the debt, it will actually help our credit rating. If the Dems stand tough and refuse to be part of the solution, our credit rating is going to go down regardless of the debt ceiling negotiations.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:25 AM   #26
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This is the second thread I've seen where cutting federal government jobs has been thrown out there as the fix for the budget deficit, and I guess I don't understand. How much of the federal budget goes to salaries and benefits for currently working federal government employees?
While I am sympathetic to the calls for mass governmnent layoffs, I know it isn't reasonable. But the concept is not just about salaries of workers. All of those workers spend taxpayer money in their jobs. Fewer workers - less money spent. I believe our government could easily stand a 10% across the board cut in workers. I would rather see that done when unemployment is lower so they could find other jobs. Or, just do it through attrition from retirements over a few years where they reduced hiring. But there is no doubt in my mind that the government has a bloated payroll.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:05 AM   #27
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All of those workers spend taxpayer money in their jobs. Fewer workers - less money spent.
I get that cutting government programs would require cutting government workers because their program is now gone and they don't have any work to do. However, I don't believe what you said above is anywhere near correct. If you cut the number of workers, you will just increase the amount that the remaining workers can spend....if you don't cut their program funding.

The only way your statement would be correct is that if every government worker spent his/her entire work day spending tax money as fast as he/she could spend it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:18 AM   #28
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The only way your statement would be correct is that if every government worker spent his/her entire work day spending tax money as fast as he/she could spend it.
You question the reality of that???
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:23 AM   #29
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You question the reality of that???
Yes. I am one and I don't get to spend squat.
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:34 AM   #30
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This is the second thread I've seen where cutting federal government jobs has been thrown out there as the fix for the budget deficit, and I guess I don't understand. How much of the federal budget goes to salaries and benefits for currently working federal government employees?
Every dollar the government spends goes to a job somewhere. That includes direct government employees, employees of government contractors, or people who make the things the government buys, or provides the services the government pays for.

This is why Ronald Reagan increased the size of government so much...to increase employment.

When the private sector is not hiring enough people the president can artificialy help the economy by hiring people into the government either directly by growing departments or indirectly by buying more government goods, and services. Reagan did this to the largest extent ever, and it helped pull us out of some very seriuos economic problems, but it also put us on the deficit path we now find ourselves on. Had we used Reagans increase in government jobs as a temporary measure, we would have been ok, but of course no president wants to be the guy with high unemployment.
Now Bush senior saw the problem with deficits growing and he raised taxes in an attempt to slow our growth in debt, so we all voted him out of office. Reagan had actualy seen the problem too and also raised taxes repeatedly, but that has been covered up by history as his being fooled by the democrats into raising taxes.
Clinton again raised taxes when he got into office and the republicans who always push for less government spending, when they are not in the whitehouse got Clinton to reduce government spending. And since the economy was growing at a very good clip, those government job losses were easily moved to the private sector. This was our best chance to reverse the course we were put on by Reagans initial actions, and it resulted in the first surpluses in government budgets since the early sixtys.
Then GW Bush came into office. He told us that the budget surplusses were our money and it should be given back to us. And so he put in the first bush tax cut. He could have used the surplus to pay off our national debt...but he chose not to. The economy had started to ease up with the end of the dot.com bubble and there were signs of trouble all over. Bush then started the second largest increase in growth of government...second only to Reagans. The problem was that he was also cutting taxes more than anyone before him. We were also involved in two wars, so our debt was growing faster than at anytime in our history up to that point. People were very concerned and they were telling Bush that this was not sustainable....that was when Cheney said his famous line that deficits just don't matter any more. The economy under Bush grew well through a combination of government hirring and private hiring as the housing bubble grew. Unemployment fell to the lowest levels since WWII due to this. But when the housing bubble burst, the private sector dumped jobs like never before. As tax reciepts tumbled especialy in the states, they had to get rid of their state empolyees too. This double whammy caused a huge spike in unemployment which also meant much lower tax reciepts. The federal government in an attempt to stop the spiraling downturn, did a stimulas which would help the unemployed and try to boost private sector hiring. It worked in spurring private hiring but the states were still shedding jobs, so unemployment though greatly slowed was still not growing. With those jobs still gone, and taxes still at the lowest rate since the income tax had been enacted, we began running huge deficits...in the trillion dollar range. Today we find ourselves five years into the recovery from the disaster of the housing bubble bust. And the Republicans again are calling for reduced spending, as they always do when they are not in the whitehouse. But the problem this time is that cutting that spending now could start that downward spiral of job loss again. The pubs would have no problem with that as they would blame Obama for causing this new depresion and they would win the political game.....but of course we would all lose.
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