Buying my first Corvette

[phoneman91]

I made a promise back in 1960-that I would legally own a Corvette some day-no matter what.

Finally ready to buy one. I need some advice and insight.

I am focused on a C5--2001 or later Convertible with manual transmission and Z51. Seems to be a very good buy now.

When were the high tension piston rings stalled? It is my understanding that the factory change occurred mid April 2001. Does anyone have an exact date?

Was the piston slap issue also corrected at the same time as the piston ring issue? I seem to remember that piston slap issue was corrected by the model year of 2002. Does anyone have the exact date of change of piston type and tighter fitting of the piston at the factory? Did this involve the LS1 also-or just the LS6? Will piston slap always be noticeable at cold start (ambient temperature in the 20s F)?

How can one determine the exact date of manufacture of one of these Corvettes? The driver's side door just has the month and year of manufacture.

I have read about the oil pressure sensor issue and the difficulty of replacement . This is one of the first questions that I ask the owner-has the OPS been replaced?

Does GM have a dealer database of all dealer maintenance done to a particular VIN? I know that Ford has such a database called Oasis. Is there a similar GM database ?

I have asked that the Corvette be placed on an overhead lift so that the underneath can be checked. I will look for leakage from the output shafts and from anywhere else-especially from the back of the engine block-to make sure that the oil pressure sensor isn't leaking nor the camshaft position sensor.

I will also check for headlight lift operation. And check for present or past battery leakage damage underneath the battery tray.

I am looking at a beautiful 2001 Convertible with 6 sp and Torch Red/Light Oak. Z51,N37,-almost all options. Three owner,35k miles-with new Optima.And four new Michelin Run Flat tires! Underneath the hood-all of the aluminum parts have no corrosion at all -even the front of the engine block. Nor are the heat shields on the exhaust headers old looking. I wonder if this Corvette ever saw rain.

It is amazing how nice many of these Corvettes are ! Most owners take extremely good care of them and the mileage is very low usually for a vehicle of this vintage.

Any advice?

Appreciate any help.

[C5 Dude]

Welcome and sounds like a good buy if the price is right.

I have alot of engine internal questions answered at the LS1tech forum. They can answer alot of engine related stuff but barely any body stuff. It is an engine driven forum. I find it good for some stuff but come here for everything else including just good fun.

Welcome again.

[Fly03Z06]

Originally Posted by phoneman91

..............How can one determine the exact date of manufacture of one of these Corvettes?

I have read about the oil pressure sensor issue and the difficulty of replacement .

Does GM have a dealer database of all dealer maintenance done to a particular VIN?

I have asked that the Corvette be placed on an overhead lift so that the underneath can be checked. I will look for leakage from the output shafts and from anywhere else-especially from the back of the engine block-to make sure that the oil pressure sensor isn't leaking nor the camshaft position sensor.

I will also check for headlight lift operation. And check for present or past battery leakage damage underneath the battery tray.

I am looking at a beautiful 2001 Convertible with 6 sp and Torch Red/Light Oak. Z51,N37,-almost all options. Three owner,35k miles-with new Optima.And four new Michelin Run Flat tires! Underneath the hood-all of the aluminum parts have no corrosion at all -even the front of the engine block. Nor are the heat shields on the exhaust headers old looking. I wonder if this Corvette ever saw rain.

It is amazing how nice many of these Corvettes are ! Most owners take extremely good care of them and the mileage is very low usually for a vehicle of this vintage.

Any advice?

Appreciate any help.

Welcome ..........and Congratulations

You will want to 1st check the DIC on the dash and write down ALL codes that may appear. The information will tell you of any current or history codes. Read the stickys at the top of the C5 Section to decipher codes.

The exact day can be identified though the VIN or Job number. The 2001 production began at 11:12 am June 23, 2000 with, Vin #100045, Job #000001. The last 2001 was built on June 21, 2001. Available through a online search......ssssssh, I think it was suppose to be a secret, but I have it.

The OPS is not difficult to replace. The Junkman has a very informative DIY here on DC. If you have a friendly GM dealer, or a friend at a GM dealer, a VIN history report of services performed by any GM dealer on car should be available. .......Should be. But I wouldn't go there for anything else.......unless they have a lunch buffet.

The output shaft seal......well, if you haven't had it leak yet, it will in do time. Again, the Junkman has a detailed DIY write up here. I am doing this right now during winter hibernation on my 2003 Z with 22K miles.

Headlight lift issues are usually a result of a stripped nylon gear. ......Usually. A simple replacement with a bronze gear takes care of it. Again a simple DIY can be found here.

The battery is very important to prevent the column lock and many other C5 parasitic draw issues. You will want to watch the Paul Koerner Seminar videos. Optima did not make a battery specific to the needs of the C5 with a 120 minimum reserve capacity. At least, the last time I purchased a new battery.

Runflat tires were not used on C5 Z's for weight reduction, so I can't speak for the runflats. I have had good experiences with changing to Michelins on everything I own though. Check the date codes on the tires though to confirm new....

Oh, Torch Red Vettes are the best

Enjoy the site......and remember to Save the Wave

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I made a promise back in 1960-that I would legally own a Corvette some day-no matter what.

That line right there sounds like you finally got tired of driving stolen ones!

Originally Posted by phoneman91

Finally ready to buy one. I need some advice and insight.

I am focused on a C5--2001 or later Convertible with manual transmission and Z51. Seems to be a very good buy now.

When were the high tension piston rings stalled? It is my understanding that the factory change occurred mid April 2001. Does anyone have an exact date?

Here are the changes that were made to the 2001 - 2004 C5 during its production run:

2001

return to 28# injectors for all models.
Second Generation Active Handling
Nassau Blue discontinued
Alternator 'clutch' pulley added on A4 cars
New soundproofing + foam in all cars
Smaller keyfob
electrochromic dimming rearview and driver's mirrors
lighter AGM battery
Thickness + Material in vert change
Chrome exhaust tips for coupe + vert
85MM MAF with integral temp sensor (versus 74mm with separate plug for IAT)
LS1 cam profile changed to: .500/0.500, 198/208 on 115.5LSA (From: 0.472/0.479, 202/210 on 117)
All Corvettes now have the LS6 intake manifold
All Corvettes now have the LS6 engine block (windage passages in block), which includes a beefier oil pump.
LS1 changes result in new output of 350 HP @ 5200 RPM and 375 Ft Lbs of torque @ 4400 RPM (MN6)
Hardtop/FRC discontinued
Pup cats added to all models
Stronger synchros in all transmissions
Exhaust manifolds revised (5hp regained) - thin wall cast replacing SS manifolds
metal valvestem caps (late year)
Torque Tube changed from metal-matrix composite to aluminum alloy 6061, increased in dia from 55 to 63 mm.
Driveshaft couplings have also been upgraded on manual-equipped models for additional strength and durability
Introduction of the Z06, which has as differences:
hardtop body style
rear brake ducting
screened inlets on front fascia, without foglights
F1 supercar tires 265-17 front, 295-18 rear, on 17x9.5 and 18x10.5 (one inch wider, respectively
new LS6 top-end with new style head design (10.5:1 compression, 64cc chamber), LS6 cam (0.525/0.525, 204/211 on 116) - 385hp
M12 transmission with shorter gearing (1-2-3 analagous to MN6 with 3.90 rear diff
Titanium exhaust system
lightweight windshield
New, stronger clutch with redesigned master + slave cylinder
Stronger rear differential (shotpeened ring gear)
Red brake calipers (otherwise identical)
Trans overtemp warning light on DIC
6500 redline gauges with special checkering + Z06 font
redesigned PCV system to help combat oil burning
Red LS6 Fuel Rail Covers (FRC's)
FE4 Z06 suspension - uprated springs, bars (30mm/23.6mm), shocks (note front spring and rear bar same as Z51)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2002

Z06 Changes:
Z06 LS6 cam changed to: 0.551/0.547, 204/218 on 117.5
Less restrictive intake airbox lid
Descreened MAF
Removal of pup-cats (total with changes = 405hp)
Z06 shocks revised with less rebound for better launching
Z06 brake pads revised for better stopping (generate more dust)
Lighter, sodium filled valves w/ stronger valvesprings
higher tension rings installed to prevent oil burning problems
slight piston redesign *
clutch strength upgraded.
HUD available on Z06 (not avail '01 model year)
Wheel supplier changed to Speedline, moved from forged to cast. Weight nearly identical
Electron Blue color offered
Steel endlinks changed to aluminum
Aluminum automatic transmission cooler case (all models)
AM/FM stereo with in-dash CD player now standard on Coupe and Convertible
AM/FM/Cassette only available with 12-disc CD changer on Coupe and Convertible

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2003

Late model-year new fuel system design from C6's
2003 anniversary edition with Anniversary paint and decal option.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2004

Z06 shocks further refined. Accompanying upper front control arm bushing, and rear swaybar bushing changes.
2004 Commemorative Editions. CE Z06 comes with carbon fiber hood and has decal package.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

Was the piston slap issue also corrected at the same time as the piston ring issue? I seem to remember that piston slap issue was corrected by the model year of 2002. Does anyone have the exact date of change of piston type and tighter fitting of the piston at the factory? Did this involve the LS1 also-or just the LS6? Will piston slap always be noticeable at cold start (ambient temperature in the 20s F)?

I don't remember the piston slap issue ever being resolved with the LS1.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

How can one determine the exact date of manufacture of one of these Corvettes? The driver's side door just has the month and year of manufacture.

Remove the bumper off the car and pull the build sheet out of the front frame hollow space.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I have read about the oil pressure sensor issue and the difficulty of replacement . This is one of the first questions that I ask the owner-has the OPS been replaced?

Who cares if it has been replaced, the question you need to ask is HOW it was replaced. Did the previous owner do the hack job and cut a hole in the firewall beneath the cowl or did they remove the plenum? The best way to fix that problem and make it a non-issue the next time it goes out (and it WILL go out again), is to relocate it the way I did mine in this thread.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

Does GM have a dealer database of all dealer maintenance done to a particular VIN? I know that Ford has such a database called Oasis. Is there a similar GM database ?

Yes, but I can't remember if all dealerships share their databases. It's been so many years since I visited a dealer that I can't remember. I wouldn't let most of those hacks near my car.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I have asked that the Corvette be placed on an overhead lift so that the underneath can be checked. I will look for leakage from the output shafts and from anywhere else-especially from the back of the engine block-to make sure that the oil pressure sensor isn't leaking nor the camshaft position sensor.

There's also the rear main that can leak and the plate on the back of the motor that can leak also (you can see the top of the plate just above the flywheel in this picture). Ask me how I know.



You have to drop the entire drivetrain from the torque tube to the rear suspension to fix that issue.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I will also check for headlight lift operation. And check for present or past battery leakage damage underneath the battery tray.

You need to check the battery too. Not just any battery will work correctly in these cars. It needs to 78-6YR, 700 CCA, with 120 RC. The AC Delco battery number that meets these requirements is model number 19001632.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I am looking at a beautiful 2001 Convertible with 6 sp and Torch Red/Light Oak. Z51,N37,-almost all options. Three owner,35k miles-with new Optima.And four new Michelin Run Flat tires! Underneath the hood-all of the aluminum parts have no corrosion at all -even the front of the engine block. Nor are the heat shields on the exhaust headers old looking. I wonder if this Corvette ever saw rain.

It is amazing how nice many of these Corvettes are ! Most owners take extremely good care of them and the mileage is very low usually for a vehicle of this vintage.

Any advice?

Appreciate any help.

Have you checked the date code on those tires? They may look new but you will never know until you check the date code. Here's how.

Good luck with your purchase and welcome to the forum. You should jump into the intro forum and introduce yourself to the masses.

[phoneman91]

Thanks to all.You all have given me some good pointers.

Like most guys-I wanted to own or will own a Corvette. It is an American Icon that DRIVES.

I shouldn't haven taken that test drive in the 2001 Convertible,6sp, Z51, equipped Corvette several weeks ago-such a test drive removes almost all common sense and reason from a buyer. And the owner could tell immediately that my will was weakening. Especially when I heard the magical statement from the owner:"Open her up" when we were test driving in the rural Plains of Colorado.

I could tell immediately after the test drive- that the designers of the Corvette were enthusiasts all and that the designers loved their product and wanted the owner to love the vehicle. Passionate engineering was apparent in everything about the C5.

I was prepared to find something about this C5 that I wouldn't like-but couldn't find anything . The view of the road from the drivers side over the low hood -just perfect. The relationship of the stickshift lever to the drivers seat when the seat is fully adjusted back-just perfect.The low effort and progressive clutch! The steering wheel to seat relationship (w N37)-just perfect for my 6' 3'' frame.And I have head room-with the top up! The Sport seats fit the lower back- perfectly. The low center of gravity and weight distribution-seems outstanding. And the quad exhaust system exiting from center rear-just a perfect appealing design that stresses the power and the IRS.

But you C5 owners-you already know all of this.

Most of guys have a low regard for the GM dealership. If one doesn't want to wrench on one of these-then the thing to do would be to find a Corvette specialty shop to work on it?

The piston slap issue: It is my understanding that it is a matter of piston to cylinder wall clearance issue and that usually it occurs not due to wear-but due to the original factory clearance. That it doesn't actually cause operating issues-just noise issues.

If I hear the LS1 start from the deep overnight cold start in 20 degree F ambient temperature-and I don't hear piston slap-it shouldn't be an issue for that particular Corvette-correct? Piston slap will be most obvious when the engine is cold?

It is also my understanding that the piston ring issue can cause high oil consumption usually only when the engine is under low load/high RPM conditions.Is this correct?

[C3C6 Norm]

Can't offer anything technical, I'm just a waxer, but good luck and have fun with whatever you get.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by phoneman91

... The piston slap issue: It is my understanding that it is a matter of piston to cylinder wall clearance issue and that usually it occurs not due to wear-but due to the original factory clearance. That it doesn't actually cause operating issues-just noise issues.

The only thing that I can tell you is that it does NOT cause any operating issues, it goes away after the engine heats up and my car has done it since the first day that I've owned it. It only happens noticeably when the engine is cold.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

If I hear the LS1 start from the deep overnight cold start in 20 degree F ambient temperature-and I don't hear piston slap-it shouldn't be an issue for that particular Corvette-correct? Piston slap will be most obvious when the engine is cold?

Yes, just as I said above.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

It is also my understanding that the piston ring issue can cause high oil consumption usually only when the engine is under low load/high RPM conditions.Is this correct?

See the attached PDF document.

[Fly03Z06]

AJ, we both must have had "food" on our mind, for both of us to post at the exact same time here yesterday ....what were you eating?

Originally Posted by Junkman2008

See the attached PDF document.

Bingo, this is why I have a catch can on my LS6.
The improvements made to the PCV system did not completely solve the oil in intake issues.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by Fly03Z06

AJ, we both must have had "food" on our mind, for both of us to post at the exact same time here yesterday ....what were you eating?

Just got in. I'm about to deep fry some "Junkman's Spicy Potato Chips!" Then I'll wash that down with a Bud Ice and a devil's food chocolate cake with white icing. Actually, that sounds pretty gross but my taste buds are always all over the place after I have visited one of my honeys.

[phoneman91]

I have been looking at several C5s since I last wrote.

2000 convertible M yellow MN6,F45,N37,UV6 60k miles 16.2k dollars 4 owners . Excellent Carfax.2k miles on non EMT tires .Curb rash on passenger side polished wheel.Wet type new battery."Dry and dirty" oil leak directly below EBCM.

2004 convertible Magnetic red MN6,F55,N37,UV6,N73 37k miles 23.5k dollars 4 owners. Excellent Carfax. 80 percent left on EMT tires. No road rash on wheels.Tires dismount rash on one wheel ( factory magnesium).Wet type new battery.

2004 coupe LeMans Blue (beautiful color) MN6,F55,UV6,N37
36k miles 24.5k dollars. 6 owners . Excellent Carfax No curb rash on any wheel.

I learned how to pull DTCs in the DIC. And I sent over 2 hours looking at each of these three Corvettes. I have several questions:

All of these and others have oil leaking from the oil filter-usually a visible drop. Undertightening? Should this be a concern?

All of the above and others have historic DTC in the DIC. At first-I was concerned about this. But it would seem that one would want to see this-it tells the buyer that the codes have not been erased by the seller. How many of your Corvettes have historic trouble code? Is this common? Should I buy one of these with historic DTC but not current DTC?

All have minor damage to the front skid rails -normal?

The 2000 M yellow above is missing the center air dam-the pivoting rubber part but also the springs and other attachments for the center rubber air dam. Are these attachments and springs available aftermarket? Also the clear plastic lens for the instrument panel is foggy. How hard to replace the clear lens? And is this lens available in the aftermarket?

The 2004 Le Mans Blue coupe above has a 10 inch scrap thru the color coat of the passenger side vertical front bumper cover. I am thinking 1k to smooth the scrap marks and repaint the whole bumper cover. This is an accurate assumption? There is a one inch round" bird duty" mark on the rear hatch thru to the metal-another 1 k cost to repaint and repair? Accurate cost assumption? Otherwise-the metallic Le Mans Blue is just perfect and outright beautiful to behold!

Wet type new battery has been placed in this 04 LeMans Blue coupe-I checked with flashlight-no evidence of battery leakage in the past or present. Should this concern me?

Appreciate all of your help and advice.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I have been looking several C5s since I last wrote.

2000 convertible M yellow MN6,F45,N37,UV6 60k miles 16.2k dollars 4 owners . Excellent Carfax.

2004 convertible Magnetic red MN6,F55,N37,UV6 37k miles 23.5k dollars 4 owners. Excellent Carfax

2004 coupe Lemans blue (beautiful color) MN6,F55,UV6,N37
36k miles 24.5k dollars. 6 owners . Excellent Carfax

I learned how to pull DTCs in the DIC. And I sent over 2 hours looking at each of these three Corvettes. I have several questions:

All of these and others have oil leaking from the oil filter-usually a drop. Undertightening? Should this be a concern?

That completely depends on where the leak is coming from. If it's the oil filter, easy fix. If it's the oil pan, much harder fix. If's it's the rear main or rear engine seal, MUCH harder fix!

Originally Posted by phoneman91

All of the above and others have historic DTC in the DIC. At first-I was concerned about this. But it would seem that one would want to see this-it tells the buyer that the codes have not been erased by the seller. How many of your Corvettes have historic trouble code? Is this common? Should I buy one of these with historic DTC but not current DTC?

Again, that depends on the codes. Some history codes are common to most C5's. Some you will never see unless there IS a problem or the car has been modified in some way. I will agree that it is better to see some codes instead of seeing NO codes. There are always history codes stored and if none are present, they have probably been erased.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

All have damage to the front skid plates-normal?

At least you know they have been driven! Normal.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

The 2000 M yellow above is missing the center air dam-the pivoting rubber part but also the springs and other attachments for the center rubber air dam. Are these attachments and springs available aftermarket? Also the clear plastic lens for the instrument panel is foggy. How hard to replace the clear lens? And how easy?

Drop that car off your list. Not only is that a undesirable year compared to the other two, but those missing and damaged parts are signs of a shade tree hack mechanic. You can easily get replacement parts of those items but there's no telling what else is wrong with that car. Run from that deal.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

The 2004 Lemans Blue coupe above has a 10 inch scrap thru the color coat of the passenger side front bumper cover. I am thinking 1k to smooth the scrap marks and repaint the whole bumper cover. This is an accurate assumption? There is a one inch round bird duty mark on the rear hatch thru to the metal-another 1 k cost to repaint and repair. Accurate cost assumption? Otherwise-the metalic Lemans blue is just perfect and outright beautiful to behold!

First, your paint cost are way high. Second, there is no metal body panels. Except for the front and rear fascia, all the other body panels are made of fiberglass. If that is all that is wrong with the car, it sounds like one to consider.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

Wet new battery has been placed in this 04 Lemans coupe-I checked with flashlight-no evidence of battery leakage in the past or present. Should this concern me?

Appreciate all of your help and advice.

Exactly WHAT MODEL new battery? You can't just slap any battery in these cars as they are very battery specific and reliant.

[phoneman91]

Mr Junkman:

I just saw one drip of oil hanging from the oil filter on these cars. I didn't see any oil from the rear main bearing seal area.But not sure-these "bat wing" oil pans are really strange.

The missing center air dam on the 2000 M yellow seemed to have been torn from the radiator support. There were scrap marks on the two aluminum triangular pivot points for the center air dam. I think if it was removed-it was because one end of the center air dam was hanging from a collision with a parking stop or whatever. The rest of the Corvette was nice-but showing wear somewhat.No garage queen.

I haven't had a Corvette or a Corvette class of vehicle before-but it has been my experience that a plastic/ urethane front bumper cover surface repair with two stage repaint and RR runs around 500- 1k and that repainting a panel-or hatch in this case-runs over 500 hundred to prep the surface,remove back glass and repaint. I am talking about quality body work that is warrantied with an excellent match of original and new paint--especially metallic dark paint(very hard to match). There is also a split in the driver's side vertical leather seat-near the seam-the leather is split near the threads.I am trying to get the seller down 2.5 k because of these issues involving this 04 coupe with 36k miles and asking price of 24.5k dollars.

I appreciate your input. I wish that I lived in your area and I get you to come with me on these Corvette quests. Experienced input is invaluable.

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by phoneman91

Mr Junkman:

I just saw one drip of oil hanging from the oil filter on these cars. I didn't see any oil from the rear main bearing seal area.But not sure-these "bat wing" oil pans are really strange.

Exactly, you didn't see any leak from the rear main because you don't know where to look. You also don't know how the oil travels and where it travels to when it is leaking from these areas. I do, from all three as I have experienced them in depth on my own car. Just take a look at my head gasket leak repair thread (or any of my engine repair threads). I've spent some with outside my LS1.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

The missing center air dam on the 2000 M yellow seemed to have been torn from the radiator support. There were scrap marks on the two aluminum triangular pivot points for the center air dam. I think if it was removed-it was because one end of the center air dam was hanging from a collision with a parking stop or whatever. The rest of the Corvette was nice-but showing wear somewhat.No garage queen.

And that guess would be mostly be incorrect. However, if that's what happened, here's the horror of that scenario.

The mounting hardware that holds that center air dam to the car is located pretty high up in the scheme of things. Look at the picture below. You see how far down the skids protrude from where the top of the center air dam meets the car? That means that you would have to bottom out the car hard enough to bust through the air dam in order to get to the center air dam's mounting bolts. OR, you would need to jump a parking block or curve, and then drag the front end of the car back over the offending obstruction. That is a sign of someone who is reckless with their car. Add to that, the air dams are there for a specific reason. They assist in making the engine run cooler by forcing air into the air box, condenser and radiator. Running the car without the center air dam is going to cause it to overheat rather quickly in the summer. Over heating the engine high enough leads to head gaskets failing and that's a completely different headache that you don't want to experience.



The right-side mounting bolt is located on the skid just in front of the stream of coolant.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

I haven't had a Corvette or a Corvette class of vehicle before-but it has been my experience that a plastic/ urethane front bumper cover surface repair with two stage repaint and RR runs around 500- 1k and that repainting a panel-or hatch in this case-runs over 500 hundred to prep the surface,remove back glass and repaint. I am talking about quality body work that is warrantied with an excellent match of original and new paint--especially metallic dark paint(very hard to match).

Look at this thread. This will give you and idea as to my level of experience when it comes to painting these cars. I had my hatch painted once when I first got the car and I did NOT want the glass removed because I didn't want it falling out again some day. Now I do all the work myself so that I don't have to worry about anyone else doing shoddy work.

You can find a shop that will charge you whatever you want to pay. I'm looking at what the shop manual says as far as time is concerned and the front fascia does not cost a $1000+ to prep and paint.

Originally Posted by phoneman91

There is also a split in the driver's side vertical leather seat-near the seam-the leather is split near the threads.I am trying to get the seller down 2.5 k because of these issues involving this 04 coupe with 36k miles and asking price of 24.5k dollars.

I appreciate your input. I wish that I lived in your area and I get you to come with me on these Corvette quests. Experienced input is invaluable.

When you get ready to fix that seat, have a look at this thread. For $600, you can replace both seats in your car with LEATHER instead of the crappy leather/vinyl crap that the stock seats are made of.

[RagtopDan]

You can tell he's still learning...he called you MR. Junkman!

[Junkman2008]

Originally Posted by RagtopDan

You can tell he's still learning...he called you MR. Junkman!

Do I need to come over there and beat you Dan?