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Old 01-21-2013, 01:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
I'm not strictly talking about "accidental" deaths. I'm talking about irresponsible gun use by legal gun owners. Ther are over 10,000 gun related homicides every year. Do you suppose some (maybe most) of those are caused by people who are not criminals per se - ordinary people who legally own a gun, but in a moment of passion or depression or whatever, use the gun on someone else? Again, don't confuse me with an anti-gun person. I am just an analytical person who understands that gun ownership has both pros and cons, and I think the cons are worth mentioning when talking about the glories of an armed society.
No, your just doing the same thing liberals have done for decades, make a false statement, bloat the figures and facts with nothing to back it up and use it against the constitution.

Like it or not, there is a constitutional right to gun ownership and it's never been about sporting or hunting.

If gun control works so well, why is Chicago more dangerous than Afghanistan?

As for the completely ridiculous statement:

Quote:
Do you suppose some (maybe most) of those are caused by people who are not criminals per se - ordinary people who legally own a gun, but in a moment of passion or depression or whatever, use the gun on someone else?
No, I think that might just be the stupidest thing ever posted on a public forum, and that says alot when considering Exotix used to post here.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:08 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vette_Newb View Post
As for the completely ridiculous statement:



No, I think that might just be the stupidest thing ever posted on a public forum, and that says alot when considering Exotix used to post here.
Fortunately, I don't get my feeling hurt very easily. But it isn't a ridiculous statement. I read the Fort Worth Star-Telegram every day. Not many days go by that I don't read about someone killing someone they know. Just this weekend, a guy killed his estranged wife and then did himself in (for the stats guys, that's a twofer). I have to assume that other major cities look a lot like Fort Worth from that standpoint. So whether it's 50% or less than 50% is meaningless. Thousands of people who legally own guns turn them on other citizens or themselves every year. That doesn't make gun ownership good or bad. But to ignore it is just being narrow minded. It does fit in a debate about gun ownership and use.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:16 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Fortunately, I don't get my feeling hurt very easily. But it isn't a ridiculous statement. I read the Fort Worth Star-Telegram every day. Not many days go by that I don't read about someone killing someone they know. Just this weekend, a guy killed his estranged wife and then did himself in (for the stats guys, that's a twofer). I have to assume that other major cities look a lot like Fort Worth from that standpoint. So whether it's 50% or less than 50% is meaningless. Thousands of people who legally own guns turn them on other citizens or themselves every year. That doesn't make gun ownership good or bad. But to ignore it is just being narrow minded. It does fit in a debate about gun ownership and use.
Of course people kill people they know. THAT's usually the entire reason of killing someone.

You started off blaming "accidental" injuries, now it's shooting someone you know. Boy has this thread taken a tangent.
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Old 01-21-2013, 02:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Fortunately, I don't get my feeling hurt very easily.
I know, I can say shit to you and not worry about you crying in your Patron over it.. must be a Texas thing because I am the same way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
But it isn't a ridiculous statement. I read the Fort Worth Star-Telegram every day. Not many days go by that I don't read about someone killing someone they know. Just this weekend, a guy killed his estranged wife and then did himself in (for the stats guys, that's a twofer). I have to assume that other major cities look a lot like Fort Worth from that standpoint. So whether it's 50% or less than 50% is meaningless. Thousands of people who legally own guns turn them on other citizens or themselves every year. That doesn't make gun ownership good or bad. But to ignore it is just being narrow minded. It does fit in a debate about gun ownership and use.
Sure, but if a guy wants to off his wife and himself and there are no guns, do you really think he is going to say "Fuck, no gun, no murder/suicide".

People turn their cars on their loved ones, poison them, stab them, beat them to death, etc. Taking a crime of passion approach to gun control is probably the absolute worst way to go about it. To Christian's and Orthodox Jews, the first murder was a crime of passion.

If someone really wanted to make a case for gun control, they would show us the running numbers in all the country's who went firearm free and let's judge those real numbers for ourselves. We have plenty of anti-gun cities/states, let's review those and see if it's a good course of action.

Otherwise, we can just hand em over and hope for the best, I mean come on, the federal government knows what they are doing, right?

Sorry, but the people behind gun control have a very ugly history, be careful who's coattails you cling too.. your nothing more than a pawn, same as the brownshirts were.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 01-21-2013, 02:19 PM   #20
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You started off blaming "accidental" injuries, now it's shooting someone you know. Boy has this thread taken a tangent.
Duck, dodge, misdirect, avoid facts. That is the liberal mantra in a nutshell.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 01-21-2013, 02:28 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Vette_Newb View Post
I know, I can say shit to you and not worry about you crying in your Patron over it.. must be a Texas thing because I am the same way.



Sure, but if a guy wants to off his wife and himself and there are no guns, do you really think he is going to say "Fuck, no gun, no murder/suicide".

People turn their cars on their loved ones, poison them, stab them, beat them to death, etc. Taking a crime of passion approach to gun control is probably the absolute worst way to go about it. To Christian's and Orthodox Jews, the first murder was a crime of passion.

If someone really wanted to make a case for gun control, they would show us the running numbers in all the country's who went firearm free and let's judge those real numbers for ourselves. We have plenty of anti-gun cities/states, let's review those and see if it's a good course of action.

Otherwise, we can just hand em over and hope for the best, I mean come on, the federal government knows what they are doing, right?

Sorry, but the people behind gun control have a very ugly history, be careful who's coattails you cling too.. your nothing more than a pawn, same as the brownshirts were.
I don't disagree with anything you say here. My ONLY point is that more guns on the streets COULD mean MORE deaths rather than fewer as the "self-protectionist" argument claims. Nothing will ever stop angry/depressed/deranged people from killing other people or themselves -- including citizens carrying concealed weapons. My original statement was that I don't think anyone has ever measured the effects, positive and negative from simple gun ownership or from conceal and carry. As an analytical person, that's a study that would be interesting to me.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:09 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post

I don't disagree with anything you say here. My ONLY point is that more guns on the streets COULD mean MORE deaths rather than fewer as the "self-protectionist" argument claims. Nothing will ever stop angry/depressed/deranged people from killing other people or themselves -- including citizens carrying concealed weapons. My original statement was that I don't think anyone has ever measured the effects, positive and negative from simple gun ownership or from conceal and carry. As an analytical person, that's a study that would be interesting to me.
Numerous studies have been done, tons of facts/figures on the issue. The numbers all tell us the same thing, what your saying is wrong. No offense, just trying to put some reality into the unicorn theory.

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Old 01-21-2013, 03:23 PM   #23
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From my perspective, like a car, a gun carries responsibilities and duties.

In France, in order to own one or more guns, you need to pass 3 times a year a proficiency exam (spaced out evenly in the year) and belong to at least one club (where you go on a regular basis).

This exam, that you take at your local gun club at no charge, requires that you are:

- able to safely load/unload and handle your weapon without endangering yourself or others.
- able to empty the charger, at a rate of your convenience, without missing the target, not even once.

Until you pass your 3 exams in a row - the gun club will lend a gun, with a shooting instructor (or club member), at the cost of the ammo (slightly more expensive than home made reloads).

From my perspective, it does not infringe on your right to bear arms because your rights cease where mine start: I have a right to live and not get shot by an idiot such as the examples mentioned in the OP.

So from where I stand, you want to own a gun or a car, sure no problem, first show me that you can shoot/drive and not shoot yourself in the foot or accidentally discharge and shoot a passerby in the process.

I'm sorry, but I do disagree, give a gun to every idiot and there will be more accidents ...


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Old 01-21-2013, 03:33 PM   #24
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From my perspective, like a car, a gun carries responsibilities and duties.

In France, in order to own one or more guns, you need to pass 3 times a year a proficiency exam (spaced out evenly in the year) and belong to at least one club (where you go on a regular basis).

This exam, that you take at your local gun club at no charge, requires that you are:

- able to safely load/unload and handle your weapon without endangering yourself or others.
- able to empty the charger, at a rate of your convenience, without missing the target, not even once.

Until you pass your 3 exams in a row - the gun club will lend a gun, with a shooting instructor (or club member), at the cost of the ammo (slightly more expensive than home made reloads).

From my perspective, it does not infringe on your right to bear arms because your rights cease where mine start: I have a right to live and not get shot by an idiot such as the examples mentioned in the OP.

So from where I stand, you want to own a gun or a car, sure no problem, first show me that you can shoot/drive and not shoot yourself in the foot or accidentally discharge and shoot a passerby in the process.

I'm sorry, but I do disagree, give a gun to every idiot and there will be more accidents ...


I see no problem with the above requirements. I would go for it if it's done by the states, as opposed to the feds, simply because everything the feds touch turns to shit.

I think there are some common sense approaches to the gun issue. But not any of them have made it to the table..
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 01-21-2013, 09:55 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Vette_Newb View Post
So, now we know there were 642 accidental gun deaths in 2009 (contrary to the stated "thousands"). So let's say 50% of US households have a gun, roughly 150 million people, probably 350 million private guns.

So let's do the math: 350 million guns, 642 deaths.. do I really need to put this into formula form for anyone to get it?
.....but you are using "accidental" deaths, not a good choice
if your using it in a equation....

.....would you feel deferent if one of those deaths was your
immediate family, and shrugged it off as a math problem...
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Old 01-21-2013, 09:58 PM   #26
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Numerous studies have been done, tons of facts/figures on the issue. The numbers all tell us the same thing, what your saying is wrong. No offense, just trying to put some reality into the unicorn theory.

....when do the numbers have to coincide with your way of
thinking....
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Old 01-21-2013, 10:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Vette_Newb View Post
I don't think it's a secret people accidentally die from guns every year. They accidentally die in dentist chairs too, and there is no constitutional amendment that guarantees dentist the right to practice on people.

But, let's go ahead and throw the facts out there for the sheep to graze on and of course, ignore.

Top Five:

5. Choking (Approximately 2,500 deaths per year)
4. Fires (2,700 annual deaths)
3. Falls (25,000 annual deaths)
2. Poisoning (39,000 annual deaths)
1. Motor Vehicle Incidents (42,000 annual deaths)

And for shits and giggles (mainly for those moderate right wingers who feel that by compromising their own, and the rights of others somehow make them superior beings )

Postscript: Accidental Shootings (600 annual deaths)

Kids and guns donít mix, especially when those guns are carelessly left in unlocked cabinets or even in plain view. Accidental shootings resulted in 642 deaths in 2009, placing them seventh on this list. Firearms are the second-leading cause of non-natural deaths for kids, typically from a gun the kid finds somewhere around the house, according to a University of Utah report that mentioned additional horrific statistics. About two-thirds of accidental shooting deaths happen in the home, with the kid shooting himself to death in 45 percent of the cases and friends or family members pulling the trigger in the remainder. More than 50 percent of American households have a gun in the house, and, in one survey of evidently careless families, 10 percent said they had loaded firearms in unlocked locations that were easily accessible to kids. There is obviously a need to keep guns in locked, inaccessible and child-resistant locations and store them unloaded.

http://listosaur.com/miscellaneous/t...ed-states.html
....are there any facts indicating that those involved were
or were not NRA members...

....and I agree they need to keep those under lock and key,
I also believe that if a parent loses a child to such a tragedy
that they must pay the price also in jail time....
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:02 AM   #28
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.....but you are using "accidental" deaths, not a good choice
if your using it in a equation....

....
At that point in time, it was Tex's choice of deaths to be used, so I applied the facts to it and then it went a different direction, so I can apply those facts as well if needed.

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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
Old 01-22-2013, 07:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Upheval View Post
You right and after this I will only look for the positive. I posted this out of irratation. Not only is the media on hyper gun alert but for people to make these dumb ass mistakes is just what we needed. Basic gun safety is to check the status of the weapon when it is in your hands. Stupid mistakes like these cost lives not to mention the crappy media attention this causes.
Amen,people are just looking for any reason to take the right to own guns away.
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Old 01-22-2013, 10:56 AM   #30
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Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!, some common sense prevails. The only solution to school shooting problem!!!

http://www.kwtx.com/home/headlines/M...187690061.html

Quote:
"We are prepared for that situation, and it can diffuse difficult situations in a hurry."
....this is a very misleading statement, way to many scenario's
that can be played out, being "prepared" is unobtainable, being "armed" is what they are providing...
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