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Old 02-05-2013, 09:59 AM   #31
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When your basic premise is 100% wrong you will never achieve 100% so the "Pubs" have not won a single thing in the last 6 years, Obama failed by being on the side of wrong...AKA Gitmo, Bush tax cuts, Gun control, etc. etc. As of today the Pubs can't field a competent candidate for potus
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:18 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by ArKay99 View Post

Now we are back to the general voting public. The 5% you are speaking about won't be swayed to vote for the party that does the most compromising. They will vote based on who they think makes them feel best about their choice, and what who they vote for will be able to get for them. The dems have been able to successfully make the pubs look like old misers while portraying themselves as benevolent nurturers with the help of the media and accomplishing what the sentence before this one has stated.
Yes, you are right. They don't vote on a philosophical basis they way you or I or the far left does. They tend to be "turned off" by certain things more than they are "turned on" by philosophical positions. Poll after poll around election time showed that the middle ground voters were extremely turned off by the uncompromising attitude of the Republicans and the Tea Party. Now, it's true that the Dems are experts at framing the Pubs that way. Who was uncompromising on the last fiscal cliff negotiations? The Dems refused to give up tax hikes and the Pubs refused to give up spending cuts. Both were responsible, but with the help of the media, the massive middle only saw the Pubs at the roadblocks. As soon as the middle senses that the Pubs are going to be immovable "no" votes on every issue, they will flee to the Dems. You can say "let 'em go", but you will never win another election if you do. Better to fight the Dems with their own tactics - tack to the middle to get the votes you need and then veer away once in office. The Pubs and the Tea Party have to be smart. Politics is a lot of gamesmanship. It shouldn't be, but it is. Just deciding not to play the game is the same as a forfeit, with major consequences for all of us.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:44 AM   #33
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Tex, you're doing good work here. Getting the swing voters is what wins elections. For the past 4 elections, I have watched carefully and given each candidate on both sides a fair shake. So its not inconceivable that with a few minor tweaks (like dumping social issues) I could vote for a Republican and sleep at night.

Shit, all you gotta do is convince the people that you're going to do something moderate to WIN the vote, once you're in, screw it, do whatever ya want...right?
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:54 AM   #34
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Tex, you're doing good work here. Getting the swing voters is what wins elections. For the past 4 elections, I have watched carefully and given each candidate on both sides a fair shake. So its not inconceivable that with a few minor tweaks (like dumping social issues) I could vote for a Republican and sleep at night.

Shit, all you gotta do is convince the people that you're going to do something moderate to WIN the vote, once you're in, screw it, do whatever ya want...right?
Here is the problem with social issues. The Pubs never intend to run on them. They have positions, but they know they are "turn offs" to lots of middle voters. Unfortunately, the Dems know that too. So, as sure as shit stinks, the Dems will begin rolling out one social issue after another every election. The Pubs have no choice but to say what their stance is on those issues, and in no time at all, those become the front/center issues in the media sending middle voters running to the left. A perfect example of this was the Dem's brilliant use of the contraceptive issue in 2012. Pubs have no problem with anyone using contraceptives. They really think people should pay for them themselves, and they don't think religious organizations should be forced to cover them. But the Dems, with the help of the media, turned the Pubs actions into a "war on women". It was totally fabricated, but millions of young women bought into it. It's a game the Pubs don't want to play, but they are forced into it every election.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:03 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Here is the problem with social issues. The Pubs never intend to run on them. They have positions, but they know they are "turn offs" to lots of middle voters. Unfortunately, the Dems know that too. So, as sure as shit stinks, the Dems will begin rolling out one social issue after another every election. The Pubs have no choice but to say what their stance is on those issues, and in no time at all, those become the front/center issues in the media sending middle voters running to the left. A perfect example of this was the Dem's brilliant use of the contraceptive issue in 2012. Pubs have no problem with anyone using contraceptives. They really think people should pay for them themselves, and they don't think religious organizations should be forced to cover them. But the Dems, with the help of the media, turned the Pubs actions into a "war on women". It was totally fabricated, but millions of young women bought into it. It's a game the Pubs don't want to play, but they are forced into it every election.
Yes, the Pubs get exploited, but they did PLENTY to bring it front and center themselves.

Todd Aiken and that other bozo talking about rape and all that mess. Then there's no way to avoid the abortion conversation from there.

Any discussion about gay marriage leads to religious conversations which inevitably turns off people, who might otherwise agree with the other IMPORTANT issues like fiscal policy.

Pubs really are piss poor about getting out there and explaining themselves and their vision in a way that leaves no doubt as to what they are talking about. I've seen it time and time again.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:21 AM   #36
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Yes, the Pubs get exploited, but they did PLENTY to bring it front and center themselves.

Todd Aiken and that other bozo talking about rape and all that mess. Then there's no way to avoid the abortion conversation from there.

Any discussion about gay marriage leads to religious conversations which inevitably turns off people, who might otherwise agree with the other IMPORTANT issues like fiscal policy.

Pubs really are piss poor about getting out there and explaining themselves and their vision in a way that leaves no doubt as to what they are talking about. I've seen it time and time again.
I agree. Both parties have factions within them that are single-issue groups that don't help the party with middle voters. The Pubs have the social issues groups, and the Dems have Greens, Gay Rights Groups, Pacifists(anti-military) etc. But the Dems are MUCH better at exploiting the Pub special interest groups that will hurt at election time. You know that Karl Rove and all of the other guys trying to get Republicans elected don't want abortion or gay rights anywhere in the conversation. It's the fringe idiots or the opposition who bring them up every time.
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Old 02-05-2013, 12:17 PM   #37
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Rove and establishment GOP go after the Tea Party

Ok, we'll here it goes.

The problem I have with any party is when religion gets pushed into the picture. 90% of the people I know are republican or independent. Out of all the people I know and work with maybe 5-10% attend church or would be considered religious.
The other part that makes me cringe is a man's stance on abortion. It's really none of our business. Tex was absolutely right about the Dems using contraceptives issue to their advantage. The woman bought into it lock stock and barrel. The repeated response was "we don't want the government in out bedrooms" referring to abortion stance and contraceptives.


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Old 02-05-2013, 12:45 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Upheval View Post
The problem I have with any party is when religion gets pushed into the picture. 90% of the people I know are republican or independent. Out of all the people I know and work with maybe 5-10% attend church or would be considered religious.
Are you suggesting that positions on social issues should
always be taken from strictly an atheist point of view?

Quote:
The other part that makes me cringe is a man's stance on abortion. It's really none of our business. Tex was absolutely right about the Dems using contraceptives issue to their advantage. The woman bought into it lock stock and barrel. The repeated response was "we don't want the government in out bedrooms" referring to abortion stance and contraceptives.
If the Dems don't want the government in their bedrooms,
why do they want to rely on the government
to provide sexual instruction in the schools?
Why do they want the government to fund their
birth control & abortions?
Why do they want the government to promote
homosexuality and bisexuality as "normal" behavior?
It seems to me that Dems want government
to partner with their party with regard to anything
of a sexual nature.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:47 PM   #39
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If the Dems don't want the government in their bedrooms,
why do they want to rely on the government
to provide sexual instruction in the schools?
Why do they want the government to fund their
birth control & abortions?
Why do they want the government to promote
homosexuality and bisexuality as "normal" behavior?
It seems to me that Dems want government
to partner with their party with regard to anything
of a sexual nature.
I agree. They don't really want the government out of their bedroom. They want the government to pay for what happens in their bedroom. I'm still waiting for the government to pay for hookers for ugly guys. There would finally be a government program I qualify for.
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:57 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
I agree. They don't really want the government out of their bedroom. They want the government to pay for what happens in their bedroom. I'm still waiting for the government to pay for hookers for ugly guys. There would finally be a government program I qualify for.
So, THAT's why you want the pubs to compromise!
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Old 02-05-2013, 02:17 PM   #41
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So, THAT's why you want the pubs to compromise!
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #42
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As a follow-up to the immigration part of this topic,
I thought it might be beneficial to post some information
about what we are doing with regard to legal immigration.

Between 2000-2009, we accepted 10,299,430 new people
to this country via legal methods.
For perspective, this is more than the entire population
of Michigan @ 9.9 million.
(Keep in mind the entire population of Canada is
only 35 million.)
4.2 million of those new people came from Latin America
and 1.7 million came from Mexico.
Not to belabor the point but for anyone to suggest
those of us who are against illegal immigration are
racist, bigoted or selfish, all we really expect from
our government is to follow the rules they themselves
have already established.

I have no problem with organized and lawful
immigration but I will never condone
growing this country by 10+ million every ten years
while ignoring millions more who are coming in
through the back door.

Statistics For Legal Immigration -
http://www.redstate.com/2013/02/06/p...ation-numbers/
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Old 02-06-2013, 03:35 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C6 CRUZR View Post
As a follow-up to the immigration part of this topic,
I thought it might be beneficial to post some information
about what we are doing with regard to legal immigration.

Between 2000-2009, we accepted 10,299,430 new people
to this country via legal methods.
For perspective, this is more than the entire population
of Michigan @ 9.9 million.
(Keep in mind the entire population of Canada is
only 35 million.)
4.2 million of those new people came from Latin America
and 1.7 million came from Mexico.
Not to belabor the point but for anyone to suggest
those of us who are against illegal immigration are
racist, bigoted or selfish, all we really expect from
our government is to follow the rules they themselves
have already established.

I have no problem with organized and lawful
immigration but I will never condone
growing this country by 10+ million every ten years
while ignoring millions more who are coming in
through the back door.

Statistics For Legal Immigration -
http://www.redstate.com/2013/02/06/p...ation-numbers/
You make a good point, and I basically agree. The problem is, we have 12M "undocumented" people that are here, and we can't make progress on legal immigration until we figure out how we are going to deal with them. Deportation would be the just solution - as far as Americans are concerned. But the effort would be very ugly, take decades, and probably result in violence. The only rational solution is some sort of path to legal residency AFTER a solid system of protecting the border is in place. I am for residency, not citizenship, for most of them because I don't think we should make voters out of people who came here illegally.
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