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Old 02-15-2013, 10:45 PM   #16
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Is it so much for you guys to believe that the elite would want a THIRD path that is neither communism nor capitalism, that still results in supreme power concentrated in the hands of a few? We live in an advancing age and it would not be unheard of for oppression to evolve into a form the world has never seen before.

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....I think they tried that in Germany, but we bombed the fuck out of them.......
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:26 AM   #17
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Why The Elite Would Lose A Civil War

Quote:
Originally Posted by 92Roadster View Post
....I think they tried that in Germany, but we bombed the fuck out of them.......
We live in an age where propaganda can be instantly disseminated to the masses by every medium imaginable, and also so cleverly disguised that the people don't even know they're
being indoctrinated.

Joseph Goebbels only had motion picture, and even then could only feed it to people willing to enter a theater and watch it. He could have never imagined the access to the human subconscious that the elite have today.


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Old 02-16-2013, 12:42 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Reino View Post
We live in an age where propaganda can be instantly disseminated to the masses by every medium imaginable, and also so cleverly disguised that the people don't even know they're
being indoctrinated.

Joseph Goebbels only had motion picture, and even then could only feed it to people willing to enter a theater and watch it. He could have never imagined the access to the human subconscious that the elite have today.


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....if you think that's bad try being married to my wife...

....if your talking about subliminal messaging I know it when I see it....
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:14 PM   #19
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The Machine is small business owner.
Most small business owners cringe at the thought of a Union.
Understandable , but without the unions there would be very few business owners. It is a very symbiotic relationship between the union and business owners. Unless an owner feels he is in the top 1% then most unions are not a bad thing. I can see why he might cringe at the thought, but with some facts and knowlage he (and those like him ) might see the benifits that a union might provide. Guess he better not let the emplyees know, 50% of them decide to be represented and he has no choice in the decision. All goes back to this one ideal - the toes you step on today may well be attached to the ass you will have to kiss tomorrow. Maybe we should start a thread an debate this too.
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Old 02-16-2013, 04:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by wildcatlock View Post
Understandable , but without the unions there would be very few business owners. It is a very symbiotic relationship between the union and business owners. Unless an owner feels he is in the top 1% then most unions are not a bad thing. I can see why he might cringe at the thought, but with some facts and knowlage he (and those like him ) might see the benifits that a union might provide. Guess he better not let the emplyees know, 50% of them decide to be represented and he has no choice in the decision. All goes back to this one ideal - the toes you step on today may well be attached to the ass you will have to kiss tomorrow. Maybe we should start a thread an debate this too.
yup, symbiotic....just ask all the companies that have been saved by unionizing...oh wait....
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reino View Post
Is it so much for you guys to believe that the elite would want a THIRD path that is neither communism nor capitalism, that still results in supreme power concentrated in the hands of a few? We live in an advancing age and it would not be unheard of for oppression to evolve into a form the world has never seen before.


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I think your referring to the "End Of Times".
Biblical Prophesies.
The Rise of the Anti Christ.
Obama & others laying the groundwork for him right now.

We have non believers here.
Atheists.

One thing for sure, Bam Bam Bama is not the Anti Christ.
He is Too Stupid.

BR
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Old 02-17-2013, 07:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reino View Post
We live in an age where propaganda can be instantly disseminated to the masses by every medium imaginable, and also so cleverly disguised that the people don't even know they're
being indoctrinated.

The wurd!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reino View Post
Joseph Goebbels only had motion picture, and even then could only feed it to people willing to enter a theater and watch it. He could have never imagined the access to the human subconscious that the elite have today.

and the proof is the idiocrasy we now 'enjoy'.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:46 AM   #23
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Ok Machine can you explain this corrolation to me? How exactly are unions like communism? While I would agree with your statement that they are on a decline the tie to communism I really dont get. You do realize that without unions we would all be working for pennies a day in a sweat shop and have nothing while the fat cats would be getting fatter. I dont know yet if this was a mistake or if you are not really aware of what unions have done for this and other countries. Would you rather our country more resemble china? If you would like I would be happy to point out many of the things that unions have donr that have become "national policy".
Well the coreleation is that in a union shop, your skills and achievements do not put you ahead of the guy working next to you. The union contract says you all get 2% or 3% raise and that is all you get regardless of how hard you work or how good you are at your job. That creates a system of mediocraty where since you get no benifit from hard work, you don't work hard. You do the bare minimum to get by. This is exactly the problem with communism. Since everyone is equal and all are paid regardless of effort, effort deminishes, in all.

Please understand that I did not start disliking unions when I started my business...I started disliking them when I started in my trade. I was a very capable machinist and moved up quickly at any company I worked at. My philosophy, was always do my best for my customer and he will reward me well. Well I always saw my customer as my employer. I also understood that in some ways I was also his customer, in that if he didn't give me what I deserved there was someone out there that would. At a few companies I worked at, come review time, I new exactly what I deserved. (I was not rediculous or overly proud, and I made sure I thought the situation from the owners perspective also). When what the owner offered was way below what was deserved, I simply stood up and thanked him, shook his hand, and said please take this is my two week notice. When they came back with a better offer, I explained that he would not feel good about an employee that beat him up for a bigger raise than he wanted to give, and I would feel the the boss does not respect me enough to offer me a fair raise without the threat of leaving.

I always found a better job within a day or two. Everytime I took another job I explained why and how I left the last place. If the owner was a fair minded person, he would see what I had done as perfectly acceptable...if he did not I would not get that job, nor would I want it.

I worked for a short time at a company that was no longer a union shop but had been up until a short time before I started there. After starting there I discovered that the shop steward had conspired with company management to get the union out in exchange for certain powers that the shop steward would have. This was a model shop for a large R&D lab for a major corporation. The first day there I was handed a job that would take me about an hour, and told this should hold me for a week. When I brought the job back an hour later, the boss (the old shop steward) told me that job was supposed to last me a week....so go find something to do for the rest of the week. I was bored to tears for the rest of the week and walked around the facility meeting the scientists and PHDs that worked there. Many of them told me how hard it was to get anything done by the model shop since it was always so backed up. So I started taking their jobs on on the side. Understand that all I was doing was my job, although I was bypassing the shop boss. When my coworkers found out what I was doing they slashed my tire, and explained that they had a way of doing things. I promptly quit, but stayed in touch with a couple of guys there. It turns out that the old shop steward retired about a year and a half after I left, and after he retired the company shut down the model shop and all those guys working like a union shop lost their jobs.

Once I started my own company, which had been my goal as a machinsit, I did not forget how I expected to be treated. I treat all of my men with the same degree of respect for what they do as I expected when I was an employee. I am very open with them about what I expect and come review time we sit down together to see how they met or did not meet my expectations. No one has ever quit working for me...although many have not made the cut.

As the owner of my own company I have made a lot of money taking half my usual hourly rate but doing work for union shops at their union rated hours for the job. I found that I would actualy make about twice my hourly rate that way, and the company was still paying less than half of what it cost them in their own shop. That is a perfect example of how unions make the costs way too high. Almost all of the union shops I worked for eventualy shut down their shops and only subcontract now, or have gone out of business.

Unions were once very important and they certainly helped bring the standard of living for working people to the point where they are today, but at some point they went too far. They went from fighting for fairness to demanding mediocraty, and they went from being a force of free market bargaining to communism, where rules are imposed to ensure that everyone makes the same regardless of effort, skill or ability, and that is where the unions went wrong. There is a big difference between rules that forced a truck driver to work 16 hour days all at regular pay, and rules that say that a mechainc that turns a monkey wrench cannot turn a screw driver. And that is why I no longer think unions are good for this country.
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Old 02-18-2013, 08:51 AM   #24
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The wurd!


and the proof is the idiocrasy we now 'enjoy'.
I completely agree....it is how you can have 45% of the people actualy believe that our president is not a US citizen, and how the same 45% can believe that republicans are losing power because they are not far right enough. The ability of FOX news to propagandise is unmatched.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:05 AM   #25
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Living in a right to work state, I just shake my head when I read of the union rules in the heavily unionized northeast. No cross training. No one can lift a hand to do a job that is not in his realm, even if he is present and has the time and skills. They have to call someone with that specific designation to do the job. Insane! And it's only there to create and protect more union jobs even when they aren't needed. No wonder companies want out of that area. When Sandy hit NJ, qualified volunteer utility crews from right to work states were turned away in the face of great need because they weren't union. No wonder everything costs three times as much in the NE as it does in the South where unions certainly exist, but workers can't be forced to join them.
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:07 AM   #26
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Living in a right to work state, I just shake my head when I read of the union rules in the heavily unionized northeast. No cross training. No one can lift a hand to do a job that is not in his realm, even if he is present and has the time and skills. They have to call someone with that specific designation to do the job. Insane! And it's only there to create and protect more union jobs even when they aren't needed. No wonder companies want out of that area. When Sandy hit NJ, qualified volunteer utility crews from right to work states were turned away in the face of great need because they weren't union. No wonder everything costs three times as much in the NE as it does in the South where unions certainly exist, but workers can't be forced to join them.
.........
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:58 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
Living in a right to work state, I just shake my head when I read of the union rules in the heavily unionized northeast. No cross training. No one can lift a hand to do a job that is not in his realm, even if he is present and has the time and skills. They have to call someone with that specific designation to do the job. Insane! And it's only there to create and protect more union jobs even when they aren't needed. No wonder companies want out of that area. When Sandy hit NJ, qualified volunteer utility crews from right to work states were turned away in the face of great need because they weren't union. No wonder everything costs three times as much in the NE as it does in the South where unions certainly exist, but workers can't be forced to join them.
Again while I do not believe in unions, the story about non-union electircians not being allowed to help was bullshit. I actualy spoke to a crew from South Carolina about this story when they were working in my area. They told me that crews from the same company that said it's guys were turned away were working in the state without any problems, and they said they were not union and were obviuosly working in the state.

Furthermore the vast majority of businesses in NJ are not unionized. Even though NJ is not a right to work state, the majority of people do not choose to belong to a union.

The cost of living in the Northeast is much more a symptom of past success than to unionism. The Northeast was the main source of economic activity for a very long time. That raised the value of land, and the taxes that could easily be payed for excelent schools and services. When the industrial might of the Northeast started to move south due to the great strides in air conditioning, the south gained in land values as well and those land values continue to climb today, while they are somewhat falling in the northeast. Your costs are quickly catching up with the northeast....so don't feel too smug.
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:30 AM   #28
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Well the coreleation is that in a union shop, your skills and achievements do not put you ahead of the guy working next to you. The union contract says you all get 2% or 3% raise and that is all you get regardless of how hard you work or how good you are at your job. That creates a system of mediocraty where since you get no benifit from hard work, you don't work hard. You do the bare minimum to get by. This is exactly the problem with communism. Since everyone is equal and all are paid regardless of effort, effort deminishes, in all.

Please understand that I did not start disliking unions when I started my business...I started disliking them when I started in my trade. I was a very capable machinist and moved up quickly at any company I worked at. My philosophy, was always do my best for my customer and he will reward me well. Well I always saw my customer as my employer. I also understood that in some ways I was also his customer, in that if he didn't give me what I deserved there was someone out there that would. At a few companies I worked at, come review time, I new exactly what I deserved. (I was not rediculous or overly proud, and I made sure I thought the situation from the owners perspective also). When what the owner offered was way below what was deserved, I simply stood up and thanked him, shook his hand, and said please take this is my two week notice. When they came back with a better offer, I explained that he would not feel good about an employee that beat him up for a bigger raise than he wanted to give, and I would feel the the boss does not respect me enough to offer me a fair raise without the threat of leaving.

I always found a better job within a day or two. Everytime I took another job I explained why and how I left the last place. If the owner was a fair minded person, he would see what I had done as perfectly acceptable...if he did not I would not get that job, nor would I want it.

I worked for a short time at a company that was no longer a union shop but had been up until a short time before I started there. After starting there I discovered that the shop steward had conspired with company management to get the union out in exchange for certain powers that the shop steward would have. This was a model shop for a large R&D lab for a major corporation. The first day there I was handed a job that would take me about an hour, and told this should hold me for a week. When I brought the job back an hour later, the boss (the old shop steward) told me that job was supposed to last me a week....so go find something to do for the rest of the week. I was bored to tears for the rest of the week and walked around the facility meeting the scientists and PHDs that worked there. Many of them told me how hard it was to get anything done by the model shop since it was always so backed up. So I started taking their jobs on on the side. Understand that all I was doing was my job, although I was bypassing the shop boss. When my coworkers found out what I was doing they slashed my tire, and explained that they had a way of doing things. I promptly quit, but stayed in touch with a couple of guys there. It turns out that the old shop steward retired about a year and a half after I left, and after he retired the company shut down the model shop and all those guys working like a union shop lost their jobs.

Once I started my own company, which had been my goal as a machinsit, I did not forget how I expected to be treated. I treat all of my men with the same degree of respect for what they do as I expected when I was an employee. I am very open with them about what I expect and come review time we sit down together to see how they met or did not meet my expectations. No one has ever quit working for me...although many have not made the cut.

As the owner of my own company I have made a lot of money taking half my usual hourly rate but doing work for union shops at their union rated hours for the job. I found that I would actualy make about twice my hourly rate that way, and the company was still paying less than half of what it cost them in their own shop. That is a perfect example of how unions make the costs way too high. Almost all of the union shops I worked for eventualy shut down their shops and only subcontract now, or have gone out of business.

Unions were once very important and they certainly helped bring the standard of living for working people to the point where they are today, but at some point they went too far. They went from fighting for fairness to demanding mediocraty, and they went from being a force of free market bargaining to communism, where rules are imposed to ensure that everyone makes the same regardless of effort, skill or ability, and that is where the unions went wrong. There is a big difference between rules that forced a truck driver to work 16 hour days all at regular pay, and rules that say that a mechainc that turns a monkey wrench cannot turn a screw driver. And that is why I no longer think unions are good for this country.
I can see where you are coming from. I hope you didnt take my comments in the wrong way. We have unions here that are like that also , but I can only assure you that not all unions are that way. The building trades union and most under the United association umbrella for instance. We have to prove ourselves and our quality and competencey each and every day. I do realize that not all are like that and many have become corrupt to a point. Had I known you were a machinist that alone would have explained alot. Here we have 5 different machinist unions for the aircraft industry ( one for each company ) and it seems every year there is one on strike or complaining about benifits, all do hiring and layoffs based only on seinority instead of production or quality. Anyway, just know that I do have an open mind and can see more than just my point of view. But as I said please know not all are that way and the ones that are still good are fighting for everyones rights, not just our own.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:09 PM   #29
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I can see where you are coming from. I hope you didnt take my comments in the wrong way. We have unions here that are like that also , but I can only assure you that not all unions are that way. The building trades union and most under the United association umbrella for instance. We have to prove ourselves and our quality and competencey each and every day. I do realize that not all are like that and many have become corrupt to a point. Had I known you were a machinist that alone would have explained alot. Here we have 5 different machinist unions for the aircraft industry ( one for each company ) and it seems every year there is one on strike or complaining about benifits, all do hiring and layoffs based only on seinority instead of production or quality. Anyway, just know that I do have an open mind and can see more than just my point of view. But as I said please know not all are that way and the ones that are still good are fighting for everyones rights, not just our own.
I did not take your comments as any sort of insult or slight. Although I do not think unions are right these days, I certainly could see a good use for unions in education (for members) , pushing for better certification, and help in group financial tools. I wish unions would evolve with the times and accept that they have made great strides in achieving protection for their members, but now it's time to work together with industry to help union members and the businesses they work for, compete in a global market place.

In the machining business, it is very difficult to find well qualified machinists, yet there are no classes available to learn to become a machinst. I would be very happy to have any machinist union push for more education in highschool and in trade schools to help create the future source of their membership. This would also solve the shortage of qualified machinists and help businesses grow. This is just one example of how unions could once again become relavent in todays economy.

It is a real pleasure to debate with a person such as yourself who can have an open mind and discuss issues without anger or resorting to insults. Your oppinion is always welcome.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:23 PM   #30
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It is a real pleasure to debate with a person such as yourself who can have an open mind and discuss issues without anger or resorting to insults. Your oppinion is always welcome.
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Fascism is a religion of the state. It assumes the organic unity of the body politic and longs for a national leader attuned to the will of the people. It is totalitarian in that it views everything as political and holds that any action by the state is justified to achieve the common good. It takes responsibility for all aspects of life, including our health and well-being, and seeks to impose uniformity of thought and action, whether by force or through regulation and social pressure. Everything, including economy and religion, must be aligned with its objectives.
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