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When will we get numbers?

21K views 92 replies 19 participants last post by  c5inBrussels 
#1 ·
Anhone have any idea when GM will release the performance numbers? HP, TQ, or Weight?

I know they will more than likely have a press day and let the mags take them around a course (maybe VIR like the ZL1 launch?), but I would think we should at least be hearing about a media event being scheduled.

I would even expect to start seeing pictures of them on the ring possibly at this point, since the cat is out of the bag on looks anyway.
 
#3 ·
As of the NAIAS, they still had a lot of testing to do, including the 24hr durability test.

I'd say 3-4 months (May-June?)
 
#8 ·
Got my "March" labeled Car and Driver with a pretty good C7 article that interviews most of the GM C7 Culprits. Tadge, Bennion, etc. They seem to confirm that the C7 weight is about 150 lbs more than the C6. Lots of emphasis on the rigidity of the structure being many time that of the C6 because they embraced new ways of making the frame and cradles.

My take away from the engineering talk is that they focused on new tech rigidity and over built it without consideration for weight. Tadge gets defensive about the weight saying that no 450 HP V8 could ever weigh the 3000 lbs that the internet expected. This sort of indicates that the Z?? won't be light either.

Bennion says they never cliniced the exterior design, only the interior. Very clear they did not care what Corvette Loyalists thought. No surprise there.
 
#9 ·
If they saved 99 lbs out of the frame, and like 35-40 from the body structure.....something needed to add aprox 300 lbs to the car for it to be 150lbs heavier. I don't get it. The math just doesn't add up.

The added components of the engine can't be 300 lbs.
 
#10 ·
One of my local "Corvette Lunch" guys went to the special $150 preview in Detroit and wants to meet to discuss the experience. I have a bad cold so we're going to wait a week or so to meet. I couldn't wait to ask him about the C7 weight. He said they explained it so that he understands why it's heavier, but he doesn't agree with their reasons for their decisions.

By the time we discuss this in detail, my guess is that everyone will know.

Of note... the C&D article also said that there is not a single formed plastic surface in the interior. Even the standard interior is completely wrapped in vinyl. I'm guessing that this is one of the contributors to the weight gain.

Another is that the Engine to Trans tunnel is MUCH heavier to avoid the resonating that the variable displacement system was causing. They also had to add more insulation for the same reasons.
 
#11 ·
From what I have read, the LT1 computers added 25 pounds of weight and to get the AFM more refined on the Corvette the torque tube gained weight. I can see them adding sound deadening material to the car as well in order to reduce the sound.

However this sounds as though they made some choices during development that added weight to the vehicle that probably doesn't have to be there.

Also it is hard to believe that they added as much weight as would need to be added in order to be 150 pounds heavier then the C6. It is as if they are moving the Corvette more toward a GT car and more away from the sports car formula. I also suspect that the 7 speed manual transmission added some weight as well.

Unless this AFM is 1000% better then the current system (which I don't think it will be) AFM is a dead end.....
 
#12 ·
:agree: Yes .. the C&D article did mention the tube in addition to the tunnel and I'm sure the tranny and probably new clutch system added some weight - maybe the launch control and rev match sensors added some weight.

Based on the numbers in the article, which include solid as a brick rigidity, and based on my buddy's preliminary comments (he's owned two C6 Z06s), I'm thinking that many of us are definately going to disagree with some of Tadge's engineering decisions.

I've never been one who wanted a stripped down no power windows, no power seat type of vette, but I certainly didn't want corvette turned into an overweight Plushmobile either. This is just sad.
 
#14 ·
I don't have the C&D with me and because I don't care as much about the C7, the numbers are sticking with me. However, I thought they quoted higher references than that. I'll look it up and post when I get home.
 
#19 ·
Go read All Corvettes Are Red. Dave Hill developed the, then revolutionary C5 chassis while driving a constant awareness of the weight impact of every nut and bolt in that car. Obviously, Wallace built on that mentality with the even lighter C6.

Tadge was either saddled with unwanted requirements or chose them but really blew it. As Chief Engineer it was his responsibility to stand his ground and say "NO" when there was an unacceptable impact on the C7 - regardless of whether it was an unworkable ARM or a Fugly rear fascia. The buck stops with Tadge.
 
#20 ·
I just think that the interior complaints over the years cost him alot of weight because GM decided this was gonna be the vette that feels like a million bucks on the inside regardless of the consequences. I think that is why we are seeing carbon fiber in the base car. That was the only way to keep weight down.
 
#23 ·
Car and Driver interview quotes:
Juechter:
3000 lbs is not practical...requirements offset mass savings elsewhere.
Ed Moss:
The center tunnel is...completely redesigned....heavier than today's aluminum car. ... latch a roof to a C7...compare to [C6]Z06...it's 50% stiffer.
Mike Bailey:
C7 has 35% more brake swept than base C6. C7 Z51 has 6% more ...than C6 Z06. ...dual cast rotor ...Aluminum center web cast iron outer with slots [drill holes experienced breakage]. Guys who run mules at VIR are getting lap times competitive with [C6] Z06.
Specifications:
Price (estimated) $55,000
Power (estimated) 450HP @ 6000
Torque (estimated) 450lb-ft @ 4200
Wheelbase....106.7 in
Length.........177.0 in
Width............73.9 in
Height...........48.6 in
Weight.......3350-3450 lb
Please note that the weight is NOT indicated as "estimated" as with the unknown elements on the table.
 
#24 ·
lap times competitive with C6 Z06 is very promising, I am guessing not the Z06 with comp. wheels and tires though.

Still though, the early C6 Z06 started at $65,000 and pulled around 1G on a skid pad (slightly over in some test and slightly under in others). It is easy to see how the Z51 C7 can be competitive with early Z06 even though its down a good amount of horsepower and up a good amount of weight.

For the person asking, there has yet to be an official weight release however I think most of us are coming to the conclusion that 3,300 pounds is highly likely. While not in its own right a bad weight I (and others) question the move as it seems as though Tadge wanted this car to be more of a GT and less of a sports car.
 
#27 ·
I dunno, I personally kind of doubt that. I agree that they're possibly being coy about the true HP numbers, but I don't think we're going to see that much of an improvement over what they've already announced (but it's true that they've said at least 450 HP and 450 lb-ft, which makes me think the final numbers might be slightly higher). I'd think at most we'll see 460-465 HP, if we're lucky... but I wouldn't get my hopes up.

Also, I don't doubt the possibility that all the new stuff wiped out any weight savings, but I think the 3,350 lbs number is a bit high. Like you mentioned earlier, that would require more than 300lbs of new weight to counter act the weight savings we already know about. But even if the car is 3,350 lbs, and the final HP number is exactly 450, that's a power-to-weight ratio that's almost identical to the current car (actually even better, just slightly). With all of the other improvements (more rigid chassis, better interior, launch control, etc.), having the same power-to-weight ratio as the current car isn't the end of the world for me.

My guess is that if the car is heavier, I doubt it's going to be much more than 50 lbs heavier than the current car. If that's the case, then the power/weight ratio will be higher than the current car and I'll be satisfied.
 
#28 ·
What I really wanna know is if the drive train is going to be made of glass like it is in the C5 and C6. It is really disheartening knowing that I have to drop around $2000+ just to know I won't grenade my diff on sticky street radials or ANY drag type tire.
 
#30 ·
IMO if it gains more than 100 lbs with an AL frame they absolutely blew it. That would actually disgust me. And the car is longer overall and has a longer wheelbase. Totally wrong direction for the car in this fan's opinion. Having said that CF on the base car can't be cost effective and shouldn't be necessary. Instead I would have just ditched the variable displacement BS. Fuel economy is very important in 2014 but you can't counteract the whole point of the car -- performance and emotion!!
 
#32 ·
Every one here just doesn't get it really. If gm doesn't get new people in the vette ASP then probably it would be the last time we see a new vette. They have to change in order to stay alive . It still have the same formula front engine rwd , v8 . The added weight of some component are meant to make it more civilize. Or does any one want a 50k car that fells like a 15 k car ? The torque tube is steel instead of aluminum it helps in the transition of AFM (at least is is what they said ) . Do you sacrifice refinement or weight ?Refinement is not an option. Then the other question should be , save the weight of the torque tube and go to a V6 TT ? They admitted that they tested Vette with other engine. The MPG are basically the same but the v6 wouldn't AFM so they could just use the old aluminum torque tube. What i am trying to say is that we should be happy that they went threw all the trouble so we could still have RWD Front engine v8 Sport car
 
#33 ·
I disagree with almost everything you state here. I think you don't get it - really. Change done right is a great thing. Change done wrong is a catastophie. Execution is everything.

Even Obama's Government overseers could see the profit and the value that Corvette brings to GM. GM is not likely to throw the baby out with the bathwater if the C7 sales fall off more quickly than they had hoped. Tadge and crew will be quickly replaced and Welburn and crew will suffer carreer stopping damage-Welburn probaly retire within a year. The Corvette is far too valuable of an asset to dump due to a mistake, albiet an expensive one.

GM would never follow up a less than successful C7 with a V6 powered C8 that would be garranteed to fail. They would correct the development direction of Corvette the sports car and fix the C7 complaints - complaints from the Corvette Loyalists they didn't care about when designing and developing the C7.


My $50+k C6 is probably 150 lbs lighter than the C7 and it neither feels nor looks anything like a $15k car and no one would ever consider it uncivilized. Difficult to beleive that anyone who owned one, or even driven one would write such a thing. True the C7 has lots of more gadgets my C6 doesn't have, but so does a S series Mercedes or a 7 series Bimer. That is NOT the direction many (most?) of us want to see Corvette taken. Your hypothesis that equates added weight with "refinement" is absurd. Apply your logic in perpetuity and a far more "refined" C9 would weigh about the same as a Silverado.

That said, if the C7 a huge success over the next 8 years, look for the Corvette to follow a path closer to the 50's Thunderbird, than the Corvettes of the past.

JMHO
 
#46 ·
The steering wheel comes from a cobalt the same could be said a bout the rest of the interior. The seats are a major complaint by every one that use a car for the track. The tire noise are high compare to some of it's main rival. BTW people here are sow arrogant. Could some one point out any of the Corvette competitors that haven't gain weight in recent history ? Hello there is a lot more thing that add weight like new crash test regulation. Gm could have maid it lighter by switching to Carbon fiber body but that would make the base vette unattainable by the majority of people. We got a new Base vette that it is more refine than any other vette , Faster than the C6 Grand Sport ,Handel better than a C6 Grand Sport ,would stop faster than a Z06,It is more Fuel economical and finally will get an interior that is on par with a 50k price tag. If that is going backward then it is fine by me .
 
#54 ·
The steering wheel comes from a cobalt the same could be said a bout the rest of the interior. The seats are a major complaint by every one that use a car for the track. The tire noise are high compare to some of it's main rival. BTW people here are sow arrogant. Could some one point out any of the Corvette competitors that haven't gain weight in recent history ? Hello there is a lot more thing that add weight like new crash test regulation. Gm could have maid it lighter by switching to Carbon fiber body but that would make the base vette unattainable by the majority of people. We got a new Base vette that it is more refine than any other vette , Faster than the C6 Grand Sport ,Handel better than a C6 Grand Sport ,would stop faster than a Z06,It is more Fuel economical and finally will get an interior that is on par with a 50k price tag. If that is going backward then it is fine by me .
How many Corvette competitors gained weight is a very short list.... I believe they all lost weight.
 
#35 ·
It is way to soon to call the C7 a failure or a success, some of us may not like the direction that they took with the C7 (would have been amazing at 3,000 pounds). However the market is full of people looking for something and this C7 just may very well be that some thing.

At the end of the day if the C7 hits all of our performance expectation does it really matter that its 3,300 pounds (if that is the final weight)?.

The Boxster with the 6 speed manual fear box has a 20/30 rating, the C6 has a 16/26 rating. Its likely that the C7 will achieve 30MPG on the highway however with its weight less likely it will match 20MPG in the city. Still though considering the cost and performance of the C7 even if its 28/30 that is still going to be very impressive. After all the Boxster doesn't have 450+BHP and 450+ft-lbs of torque.
 
#36 ·
Don't get me wrong I love the C7 but I'm always hoping each new Vette will be smaller and lighter. To see an aluminum framed and CF base vette gain 150 lbs and increase in every dimension is horrific to me. :thud:

About AFM, i wouldn't have a problem with it except its extra bits and steel torque tube have apparently added significant weight to the vehicle. I'd rather pay gas guzzler and keep a V8 full time. Plus I'll bet you any money it limits the tuning capabilities of the engine. IMO AFM will be viewed like skip-shift -- the first thing you get rid of when you tune a new corvette.
 
#39 ·
AFM doesn't even add that much to the fuel economy of a vehicle at least when it comes to ratings. Unless this new system is worlds better then the old system I just do not see a huge gain from it. I actually think that they would have gotten a similar (if not greater gain) with a concentric camshaft VVT system (and more horsepower too). As it turns out taking something like a 6.2L V-8 and turning it into a 4 cylinder engines doesn't give it Cruze level of fuel economy (42MPG highway). For one its a big 4 cylinder engine and it also has to still spin all of the mass of a V-8 engine around with only 4 running. Maybe they looked at the concentric camshaft design and their new AFM system out performed it.

With that being said at least there is a ton of weight to be taken back out of the car for the Z06 model (if they want to do that).
 
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#40 ·
Peak numbers are great, but what can really make a car perform is power under the curve. Also the power off idle and where the power band truly start are also of importance. I want to see the HP/TQ dyno sheet with the curve on it.

I agree, GM had to make a car that will not only compete, but win AND sell. If adding a 100-200 lbs of doodads will increase sales enough for the car to not only continue, but to get even more love and development that is fine with me. If it starts to get up in the Camaro/Challenger/Charger/Mustang weight range, THEN it will be a problem.
 
#57 ·
Lamborghini Aventador 3470lbs
Lamborghini Gallardo 3300lbs (spyder) 3400lbs (coupe)

Ferrari 458 3200lbs
Ferrari California 3600lbs

So yea, the competition is rather portly as well
 
#58 ·
Those really are not competitors of the Corvette, while the Corvette can match and surpass them in performance they are not often cross shopped due to the big price difference between these cars.

Lamborghini's are notoriously over weight with their AWD systems, though what Alex was commenting on was did a vehicle gain weight. He stated that they gained weight which was demonstrably false. Consider how much weight the Lamborghini Aventador lost over the Lamborghini Murcielago. It went from 3,638 pounds to 3,470 pounds and that is with a heavy AWD system.

Really for a long time the Porsche 911 and to a lesser degree the Porsche Boxster is the Corvette's main competitors along with the Dodge Viper. All of those models lost weight with the 911 Carrera coming in at a base weight of 3,042 pounds and it has back seats and I don't think it uses any carbon fiber in base form (though I could be wrong about that). It meets the same fuel economy and crash safety standards as the C7 Corvette........
 
#72 ·
Geez. The only excuse I haven't read is, "but the C7 has a thyroid condition."

The bottom line is it looks like the base C7 is going to weigh as much as a C6 ZR1 (3350 lbs) and it will perform at some level less than a C6 Z06. If you call that "successful development," Fine for you. I and others here do not.

Let's move on.
 
#73 ·
On the weight issue sure....

On the performance issue I don't see how you can call that anything less then amazing performance. Do you expect the Z51 C7 to run the ring in 7:22????. Do you think that the base C7 should blow away the C6 Z06 in performance? and if you do then what would merit this?.
 
#85 ·
I don't think you will see the engine detuned in the base and more in the Z51. It will be a track type package, handling and HD parts. GM doesn't really have a reason to do that with the Z06/ZR1 in the works.


BTW everyone GM said a "couple" of months on the truck HP and MPG numbers. The trucks are expected to be available in June. What I think is crazy is that GM is missing out on some serious marketing opportunity by waiting, and it could already be hurting truck sales as dodge and ford both have better current numbers.
 
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