Can a C3 compete with a C6 Z06? Video added 8/10/12 - Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums
 
 
Go Back   Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums > C3 Corvette Forums > C3 Corvette
Register Forums Garage Garage Mark Forums Read Auto EscrowInsurance

Notices

C3 Corvette
C3 Corvette General | Technical | Performance | Aftermarket | Discussions

Other sections:
Corvettes Classifieds
Corvette Detailing & Car Care
Corvette Audio/Video/Radar
General Automotive/Shop/Tools
Corvette Performance Driving/Racing

( Sponsored by: Zip Corvette Parts )

Shops/Tuners
Custom Image Corvettes
A&A Corvette
Corvette tuner

Interior
Corvette aftermarket products

Insurance

Parts & Products
Race Ramps
Edelbrock
ATI/Procharger
Corvetteguys.com
Melrose Motorsports
Parts Taxi
Airaid
Mid America Motorworks
Pfadt Racing
Madvette Motorsports
Hi-tech Custom Concepts
Corvette aftermarket products
Corvette Garage
Corvette Parts and Accessories
Corvette Car Care Products
Corvette HID
Mid America Motoroworks

Tracks/Schools
Bob Bondurant School of High Performance Driving
Corvette driving school

Wheels/Tires
Cray Wheels

Services
BADWERKS.com
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 07-27-2012, 03:45 PM   #1
iburke
Sir Dude
 
iburke's Avatar
 
Posts: 17,380
Member #6081
Member since: Dec 2003
Location: St Joseph MO.

My Corvette(s)
1971 T-Top

Thanks: 38
Thanked 51 Times in 41 Posts
Can a C3 compete with a C6 Z06? Video added 8/10/12

Can a C3 compete with a C6 Z06? That was the question some one ask a year or so ago. And if yes at what cost.

So I set out to find out. Including the cost of the car I set myself a budget of 30K and I am well below that figure.

Here is what I have so far.



1971 Corvette coupe
383 ci sbc
Eagle rotating Assembly
KB 18cc dished pistons
Comp forced induction cam
MSD 6AL ignition
MSD boost timing control
Edelbrock 750 CFM carb.
Holly 144 blower
AFR heads
Oil cooler
Long tube headers
3" collectors
2.5" exhaust



NV3500 5 speed trans.
3.08 rear end
C5 rims and tires.



Front suspension VB&P
Rack and pinion steering with hydro boost
Dual mount 8 pt. adj. transverse spiring
1.125" anti sway bar
Tubular off set A arms
QA1 single adj. shocks
Ploy Bushings
C5 rotors and calipers
Hawk pads



Rear suspension VB&P
Dual mount 8 pt. adj. transverse spiring
No sway bar
Off set trailing arms
Adj. smart struts
QA1 single adj. shocks
Ploy Bushings
Rear brake bias adj. valve
C3 calipers and rotors
Hawk pads



Holly 14 lb. 95 GPH fuel pump
fuel pressure regulator.



Hand built Cold air cowl induction hood.
Aux. elect. fan
HEI distributor



Custom built Dash
Sparco seat
5 pt harness.



Roll Cage. Coming as soon as I complete my TIG welding class.


iburke is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
I can't tell if I'm dealing well with life these days or I just don't give a shit any more.
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 07-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #2
Patrick
DC Crew
 
Patrick's Avatar
 
Posts: 53,109
Member #1
Member since: Jan 2003
Location: Arizona / USA!

My Corvette(s)
Current: 2003 Convertible .... Previous: 1996, 1996 GS, 2001 vert, 2002 Z06, 2003, 2007 Z51, etc...

Thanks: 17
Thanked 81 Times in 58 Posts
Patrick is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2012, 04:54 PM   #3
riggs 74
DC Crew
 
riggs 74's Avatar
 
Posts: 1,101
Member #78208
Member since: Dec 2008
Location: ohio, springfield

My Corvette(s)
74 vette

Thanks: 9
Thanked 34 Times in 34 Posts
If it can't, you would defiantly have fun trying with a setup like that.

Riggs
riggs 74 is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2012, 06:16 PM   #4
Dan85Vette
DC Crew
 
Dan85Vette's Avatar
 
Posts: 20,618
Member #9092
Member since: Feb 2004
Location: VA

My Corvette(s)
'85 Vette - 383 TPI

Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 14 Posts
Looks great Ivan! Can't wait to see the roll cage come together.

Great talking with ya earlier
Dan85Vette is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2012, 07:10 PM   #5
MIKE80
DC Crew
 
MIKE80's Avatar
 
Posts: 890
Member #85716
Member since: May 2009
Location: Stockton, NJ

Thanks: 9
Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts
A man with a plan Nice! Got any pics of the interior, under the hood, or suspension?
MIKE80 is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2012, 07:38 PM   #6
Turbo84
DC Crew
 
Turbo84's Avatar
 
Posts: 571
Member #54556
Member since: Dec 2006
Location: KCMO

My Corvette(s)
1969 427 5spd, 1984 turbo 6spd

Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 3 Posts
Well, there's a couple things a C6Z has that most C3s don't.

1) A ton of tire width, and wider track, under flared fenders. It's been my experience that tires are 90% of the "secret" to good lap times. How much tire can you get under your fenders?

2) Horsepower (500+). Rare in most C3s, but attainable.

3) Light weight. With some parts stripping or a bunch of light material substitution a C3 can get well below the weight a C6. Light weight in a C3 helps compensate for smaller tires or sub-500 power levels.

4) Weight distribution. I'm not impressed with the weight distribution of a C3 (particularly L/R), and I have to believe that a C6 was designed with more focus on where the weight was placed.

There's a hundred additional minor items, but the above stuff seems to be the major contributors IMO.

I hope I'm right, or otherwise I've wasted a lot of time and effort tweaking a hundred things on my car.
Turbo84 is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
'69 LeMans Blue Coupe
427 ZL-1
Doug Nash 5 speed
C4 suspension
Wilwood brakes
(The corner pile in the barn of original and numbers-matching stuff continues to grow each week.)

'84 Blue Coupe Z51
355 turbo, aluminum heads
Richmond 6 speed

'51 Chevy Pickup (blue, of course)
350 single turbo
Turbo 400 trans
'85 Vette front suspension
'95 Vette rear suspension
Old 07-27-2012, 09:50 PM   #7
rpol98
DC Crew
 
rpol98's Avatar
 
Posts: 83
Member #62571
Member since: Jul 2007
Location: Hawaii

Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
IMHO and only that:

i think there's only so far that you can take the C3 with bolt-ons. i'd guess the rear "trailing arm" suspension geometry is a serious limiting factor, being used since 1963, replaced in 1984 by the much-more capable multi-link IRS in the C4, now a favorite with hot rod chassis mfr's. although I still think the C3 iron differential housing can take more abuse than a Dana 44. Metalurgy has come a long way since, though.

Greenwood fixed the rear suspension shortcomings with some serious welding, fabrication & redesign on his 1970's era legendary racers, and those probably represent the epitome of C3 suspension technology.

Dick Guldstrand offers a weld-in 5-link conversion for the C3 which probably gets you in the ballpark.

otherwise you're comparing 50-year old technology with the current state-of-the-art. it's a serious handicap.

it would be interesting to see what a Greenwood racecar (w/ alum BBC, Kinsler, etc) could do at the Nurburgring for a lap time. did it ever run there?

please don't get me wrong on this, I myself own 2 C3's, so I'm not slamming C3's. and my GF owns a C4 (i get to soup it up ) but even on a good day, I know my 540 BBC with all kinds of suspension hop-ups, lightening tricks, probably couldn't hold a candle to an idiot-driven C6 Z06, which, when the price for used 2008 Z06 drops low enough, that's my plan. it'll be a while, but in the meantime, i'm definitely enjoying the hell out of my 540BB C3.
rpol98 is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-27-2012, 10:26 PM   #8
Curby
DC Crew
 
Curby's Avatar
 
Posts: 442
Member #68914
Member since: Jan 2008
Location: Deatsville, AL

My Corvette(s)
2000 Convertible, 1982 Crossfire, 1973 L48 Coupe, 1972 LS5 Coupe, 1971 Convertible

Thanks: 5
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Active Handling and Traction Control in the Z06 REALLY help make that an exceptional track car.

You have done a lot to that car, and it should be a super blast to drive on or off the track, but I think you need more tire contact area, and more brake mass to be competitive on the track with the Z06.
Curby is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Triple Black 2000 Z51 LS1 Convertible
Black 1982 L83 Crossfire Injection Coupe
Metallic Yellow 1973 L48 Coupe
Millie Miglia Red / Black Road Race 1972 / ZZ454 Coupe
Ontario Orange 1971 M21 Convertible
Old 07-28-2012, 12:27 AM   #9
Spiderpat
Web Head
 
Spiderpat's Avatar
 
Posts: 15,701
Member #39596
Member since: Oct 2005
Location: Goodyear, AZ

My Corvette(s)
04 Z06 aka The Black Widow

Thanks: 6
Thanked 24 Times in 19 Posts
Awesome Ivan.
Spiderpat is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
My Black Widow

Most of my patients survive no matter what I do to them
Old 07-28-2012, 01:00 AM   #10
johnnyjaws
DC Crew
 
johnnyjaws's Avatar
 
Posts: 106
Member #119012
Member since: Jun 2012
Location: newburgh ny

My Corvette(s)
76 stingray

Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
ALL YOU SHOWED me was pics of the car not the motor
johnnyjaws is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2012, 08:45 AM   #11
Metalkid
DC Crew
 
Posts: 932
Member #92641
Member since: Oct 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV USA

My Corvette(s)
1978 Silver Anniversary Model #678

Thanks: 8
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rpol98 View Post
IMHO and only that:

i think there's only so far that you can take the C3 with bolt-ons. i'd guess the rear "trailing arm" suspension geometry is a serious limiting factor, being used since 1963, replaced in 1984 by the much-more capable multi-link IRS in the C4, now a favorite with hot rod chassis mfr's. although I still think the C3 iron differential housing can take more abuse than a Dana 44. Metalurgy has come a long way since, though.

Greenwood fixed the rear suspension shortcomings with some serious welding, fabrication & redesign on his 1970's era legendary racers, and those probably represent the epitome of C3 suspension technology.

Dick Guldstrand offers a weld-in 5-link conversion for the C3 which probably gets you in the ballpark.

otherwise you're comparing 50-year old technology with the current state-of-the-art. it's a serious handicap.

it would be interesting to see what a Greenwood racecar (w/ alum BBC, Kinsler, etc) could do at the Nurburgring for a lap time. did it ever run there?

please don't get me wrong on this, I myself own 2 C3's, so I'm not slamming C3's. and my GF owns a C4 (i get to soup it up ) but even on a good day, I know my 540 BBC with all kinds of suspension hop-ups, lightening tricks, probably couldn't hold a candle to an idiot-driven C6 Z06, which, when the price for used 2008 Z06 drops low enough, that's my plan. it'll be a while, but in the meantime, i'm definitely enjoying the hell out of my 540BB C3.
Upgrade the rear with some upper strut rods a' la Giovanni's 6-Link (like I did!) and I'll bet you get much better results than a C4 5-link setup. Maintaining contact patch might compensate for the differential in tire width discussed above.
Metalkid is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2012, 09:02 AM   #12
Metalkid
DC Crew
 
Posts: 932
Member #92641
Member since: Oct 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV USA

My Corvette(s)
1978 Silver Anniversary Model #678

Thanks: 8
Thanked 23 Times in 23 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curby View Post
Active Handling and Traction Control in the Z06 REALLY help make that an exceptional track car.

You have done a lot to that car, and it should be a super blast to drive on or off the track, but I think you need more tire contact area, and more brake mass to be competitive on the track with the Z06.
REAL 'Vette drivers don't need no stinkin' AH/TC!

I wanna see car/driver skills not software engineer's code compensating for driver error.
Metalkid is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-28-2012, 07:34 PM   #13
iburke
Sir Dude
 
iburke's Avatar
 
Posts: 17,380
Member #6081
Member since: Dec 2003
Location: St Joseph MO.

My Corvette(s)
1971 T-Top

Thanks: 38
Thanked 51 Times in 41 Posts
I guess every one miss my Three long posts on the build of this car over the last couple of years. I,ll dig out some of the pics and post them here.

I under stand the advantage of all the current state-of-the-art technology. I drove a C6 Z06 on and off the track for 40K miles. And at the Bondurant school.

But like most of you out there I don't have a ton of money, and about 3 years ago I came so close to putting my Z06 in to a wall at the track in Topeka Ks. And at $1200 for a front fender, $900 for a hood, $1500 for a windshield, and if the aluminum frame got bent... Well I thought there has to be a cheaper way to race.

As far as the traction control and active handling goes, it is a great safety factor and teaching tool. If you can drive with out activating it you are making your fastest laps. When it comes on it stops you in your tracks.

I do miss anti lock brakes, Its easier to come in to a corner braking late with your foot full on the brake all you need to think about is steering input, and not feathering the brake.

I love reading your posts both pro and con, It makes me stop and think about what to do next. Just like my first time on the track with it I found it was useless with out rear brake bias control, only a $30 item...



The old track car.



The C3 interior under stand this is still a work in progress.



One of the motor.



The Rack and front and rear spring.





The brakes and A arms.



This car is street legal, the suspension can be adj. for track or street. And it is as smooth power wise to drive as the Z06. It has great street manners.
iburke is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
I can't tell if I'm dealing well with life these days or I just don't give a shit any more.
Old 07-28-2012, 08:49 PM   #14
ylose
DC Crew
 
ylose's Avatar
 
Posts: 229
Member #7938
Member since: Jan 2004
Location: WI

My Corvette(s)
1978 - Custom

Thanks: 2
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Your build is fantastic....keep it rolling!!
ylose is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Old 07-29-2012, 05:55 AM   #15
rtj
 
rtj's Avatar
 
Posts: 3,906
Member #52011
Member since: Oct 2006
Location: orlando fl usa

My Corvette(s)
75/502, C6 Z06, 70 ProStreet

Thanks: 1
Thanked 30 Times in 29 Posts
Looks really good. What seat is that? Can you let us know how it fits, comfort, seating position, mounting, etc.

One thing you might consider as a low cost upgrade is the tall Howe upper ball joints. For $150, they apparently improve steering geometry ( lots of info on the web for c3's).
rtj is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (12 CHARACTERS MAXIMUM), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:05 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.
2003-2011, DigitalCorvettes.com - All Rights Reserved