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Old 12-04-2012, 02:03 PM   #1
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Are Pubs holding a gun to thier own head.

I look at what is going on with the fiscal cliff negociations and have to shake my head. Why are they fighting so hard with no cards to play. Seems to me that we lost this negociation when we pushed the Bush tax cuts and military spending cuts into the period we were sure we would now hold the whitehouse , but failed to win the whitehouse. That means we lost. Obama can simply let the Bush tax cuts expire and get what he wants. If he realy wants the tax cuts for the middle class he can just push for them later....would Republicans realy say no???? If they did they would be finished. The fiscal cliff is everything Obama wants. The military spending cuts would do him just fine, allowing the bush tax cuts to expire and then passing them again for the middle class would just turn the Bush tax cuts into the Obama tax cuts....a great legacy for him. And all of this while polls show that the Republicans would get the lions share of blame for going over the cliff and causing the economy to get hurt. If the economy recovers quickly Obama gets the credit, if the economy drags on in the dirt for years the Republicans will be blamed for causing it and Hillary Clinton will take over for Obama in 2016.

It seems to me that the Republicans have to learn to play poker. When you are dealt a seven-duce off suit...you should fold. If you didn't, when the ten queen ace is flopped and the guy your playing goes all in, you should fold....if you don't your the fool and don't deserve a place at the table.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:20 PM   #2
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Just fold? Principles don't count? Just vote for more taxes with no reduction in spending and no reforming of entitlements when everyone on both sides knows there is no alternative? The Dems may have won the White House, but they didn't get the trifecta they got the first time. That means the onus is on them to compromise just as the Republicans have.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:27 PM   #3
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Just fold? Principles don't count? Just vote for more taxes with no reduction in spending and no reforming of entitlements when everyone on both sides knows there is no alternative? The Dems may have won the White House, but they didn't get the trifecta they got the first time. That means the onus is on them to compromise just as the Republicans have.
No....the onus is on Republicans, because if they don't give something they lose everything. The Bush tax cuts are set to expire. The sequester is also automatic. Principles are fine when you have a bargaining position, but they do not have one. They are holding a gun to their own head and daring Obama to not act.

If the tax rates go up for the wealthy but not the middle class, what will happen???? You say the economy will be ruined, Obama says it won't. If you stand by your convictions why not prove the point. Let the tax cuts expire for the rich and when the economy tumbles even after Obama got all he wanted, the Dems are in a cold dark place for a long long time. I guess the only risk is if the Pubs are wrong and the economy actualy improves with higher rates for the rich.

Is that what you are worried about Tex????
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:02 PM   #4
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Is that what you are worried about Tex????
Nope, what I am worried about is the Dems stance of "Give us tax cuts now and we PROMISE we will give you spending cuts later". Been there, done that, not buying it. It takes two sides for us to go over this cliff. Either side can prevent it. It's being a little narrow minded to say only the Pubs would be responsible. Obama has it completely in his power to prevent it, and so far, he is saying he won't.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:10 PM   #5
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Got to agree with Tex on this . . . the Democrat's idea of compromise is "do it our way". They have no interest in anything beyond keeping their constituents dependent upon them. Keep those entitlement checks flowin', every one is a vote for life.

Never mind the misery they perpetuate.

I say, conservatives, stick to your guns. Spending more than you take in is the road to ruin, and taking in more through higher taxes just widens that road - the liberals will spend every dime, plus 20%. Stop the bleeding, reduce the spending.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:28 PM   #6
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Nope, what I am worried about is the Dems stance of "Give us tax cuts now and we PROMISE we will give you spending cuts later". Been there, done that, not buying it. It takes two sides for us to go over this cliff. Either side can prevent it. It's being a little narrow minded to say only the Pubs would be responsible. Obama has it completely in his power to prevent it, and so far, he is saying he won't.
Well first of all they are not asking for tax cuts, they are asking for tax increases on the rich. ( I know you knew that but I just don't want to confuse others) And the spending cuts are also guaranteed but they are on the things the Pubs do not want to cut, like military spending.

So if Obama does not give in taxes go up anyway, just like he wants. And spending cuts go into effect on the stuff he wants cut antway. Where can he lose????

As for who gets the blame.... new poll out today shows Pubs take the blame if we go over the cliff, 2 to 1. People expect the Pubs to give in on the tax hikes for the rich, because that is what Obama ran on and won.

Tex we can fight for our principles till the death today, or we can live to fight another day. It is just plain stupid to destroy the party just to save a few percent of taxes for guys like you and I who can easily afford it.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:32 PM   #7
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Got to agree with Tex on this . . . the Democrat's idea of compromise is "do it our way". They have no interest in anything beyond keeping their constituents dependent upon them. Keep those entitlement checks flowin', every one is a vote for life.

Never mind the misery they perpetuate.

I say, conservatives, stick to your guns. Spending more than you take in is the road to ruin, and taking in more through higher taxes just widens that road - the liberals will spend every dime, plus 20%. Stop the bleeding, reduce the spending.
The truth is that GW Bush did more spending than Obama has and he did it while cutting taxes. Who do you think the public sees as the fisacly responsible party right now???
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #8
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Is that what you are worried about Tex????
******Sorry, dupe post *************

Nope, what I am worried about is the Dems stance of "Give us tax cuts now and we PROMISE we will give you spending cuts later". Been there, done that, not buying it. It takes two sides for us to go over this cliff. Either side can prevent it. It's being a little narrow minded to say only the Pubs would be responsible. Obama has it completely in his power to prevent it, and so far, he is saying he won't.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:41 PM   #9
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Tex we can fight for our principles till the death today, or we can live to fight another day. It is just plain stupid to destroy the party just to save a few percent of taxes for guys like you and I who can easily afford it.
Frankly, the Pubs are probabaly toast anyway. The masses who voted for these Socialists might as well begin to learn that money doesn't grow on trees and that if they want cradle to grave nanny care, they are going to have to pay for it. There aren't enough rich people to pay for the other 98% nanny care. Let the taxes go up on everyone, let the takers vote all Dems in the House and then let's see how soon the new Dems cut taxes for the middle class. Don't hold your breath. Once they get their mitts on that revenue, they will never let it go.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:00 PM   #10
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Frankly, the Pubs are probabaly toast anyway. The masses who voted for these Socialists might as well begin to learn that money doesn't grow on trees and that if they want cradle to grave nanny care, they are going to have to pay for it. There aren't enough rich people to pay for the other 98% nanny care. Let the taxes go up on everyone, let the takers vote all Dems in the House and then let's see how soon the new Dems cut taxes for the middle class. Don't hold your breath. Once they get their mitts on that revenue, they will never let it go.
Well that is my point...why toast ourselves. Let Obama have his way. When he fails and the economy crumbles, we win the war. If he gets his way and things improve....well then maybe we have to reexamine our beliefs. Truth is blaming the republican defeat on takers is the worst possible stand we can take and will simply condemn us to years out of power if we don't grow up.
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Old 12-05-2012, 06:23 AM   #11
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Things won't improve economically, because they can't improve economically. An economy has to have a clearing-out from time to time to work the bad debt, bad players out of the system. That will not be allowed to happen no matter which puppet is fronting the game.

I say let it go over the cliff. But that won't happen in the DC Shore reality show.. they will put on the dog and pony show for the masses who will in turn argue about irrelevant bullshit, while the "Road goes on forever and the party never ends".

The Pubs put a gun to their head in 2008 with John McCain.. and pulled the trigger.
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:48 AM   #12
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Well that is my point...why toast ourselves. Let Obama have his way. When he fails and the economy crumbles, we win the war. If he gets his way and things improve....well then maybe we have to reexamine our beliefs. Truth is blaming the republican defeat on takers is the worst possible stand we can take and will simply condemn us to years out of power if we don't grow up.
I agree. I guess the thing I don't understand is why, when both parties can stop the train, only the Pubs are getting the blame. Obama can compromise and resolve this issue, but he refuses. Boehner can compromise more, and he refuses, and he gets ALL the blame. Why doesn't the public demand that both sides move toward the middle the way it has been done for 200 years?
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:55 AM   #13
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I agree. I guess the thing I don't understand is why, when both parties can stop the train, only the Pubs are getting the blame. Obama can compromise and resolve this issue, but he refuses. Boehner can compromise more, and he refuses, and he gets ALL the blame. Why doesn't the public demand that both sides move toward the middle the way it has been done for 200 years?
Thats easy Tex, The Democratic propaganda machine has been running full tilt now for more than 8 years now, the masses believe the rich do not pay their far share and Obummer has proof (examples). Now the American public believes if taxes go up the deficit will go down. The problem is this is as big a wopper you can tell and get away with it today. Heck look how the media is trying to diminish Rush Limbaugh and Fox news, It is gaing traction don't kid yourself. I'm afraid the only way out of this mess is a complete colapse of our entitlement structure (the ability to print checks)
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Old 12-05-2012, 07:57 AM   #14
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I agree. I guess the thing I don't understand is why, when both parties can stop the train, only the Pubs are getting the blame. Obama can compromise and resolve this issue, but he refuses. Boehner can compromise more, and he refuses, and he gets ALL the blame. Why doesn't the public demand that both sides move toward the middle the way it has been done for 200 years?
So what is the middle??? The polls reflect what the people percieve. Obama ran and won on the issue of higher taxes for the top 2%. That is what the people want. So give it to them. If the economy tanks again, the blame goes to Obama, if we hold up the tax increases for the rich and they go up for eveybody, the people will blame the pubs. If we do not do anything and the economy faulters at all the Pubs get the blame. Sometimes you have to let the other side hang themselves so you can prove your point, only then can you come back and say, we gave that a shot and it failed now lets do it our way.
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Old 12-05-2012, 08:03 AM   #15
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So what is the middle??? The polls reflect what the people percieve. Obama ran and won on the issue of higher taxes for the top 2%. That is what the people want. So give it to them. If the economy tanks again, the blame goes to Obama, if we hold up the tax increases for the rich and they go up for eveybody, the people will blame the pubs. If we do not do anything and the economy faulters at all the Pubs get the blame. Sometimes you have to let the other side hang themselves so you can prove your point, only then can you come back and say, we gave that a shot and it failed now lets do it our way.
Who determins failure? Thats where you are flawed, Has Obummers way worked thus far? does it warrent anther try of spending more? The intellegent foke don't believe so at this point. Fact is the point is we are spending more than we bring in and there is not enough left over to bring in what you need to keep the spending and the majority doesn't see this
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