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Old 12-17-2012, 04:53 AM   #1
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The gun control battle is winding up.

In the wake of the tragedy in Newtown the gun control topic has resurfaced. It is all over the news. It is going to be a fight. I have read the opinions on the subject and the majority seems to be against stricter gun laws even though some media is saying different.

I understand that people want something done to stop this kind of thing from happening again, but stricter gun laws is not the answer IMO. Connecticut has some of the strictest gun laws in the country and this did not stop a crazy person.

The people that do these types of things know that schools are a soft spost and that most people in public i.e malls and theaters do not carry in some states.

I say we have a couple of people on the campus of each school that are trained by the local authorities to be an undercover type protector. Kind of like the air marshals that fly on the planes that carry. They could receive federally sanctioned training, extra pay to maintain their qualifications which have to be done annually, and have to go a through background check in order to be eligible.

Just an idea. Makes more sense than stricter gun laws. It has worked on the airlines thus far.
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Old 12-17-2012, 05:23 AM   #2
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I don't think any anti-gun legislation would make it at this point. Any sponsors on the Hill, know they'd be out of a job. As for UC's on campus's I don't think that would work either. Most are way too vast, you'd need a large force of UC's to make much of a difference. Also, how long would it take before they'd be known? Say I was a crazy person with a known UC in my class. I'd simply get up, walk out the door, duck back in and start firing. Since I know the UC is armed, I'd simply be waiting for him to stand to fire at me and pick him off easily. Everyone else would be ducking under their desk's or running for the back door.

If the root of the problem isn't tackled, then no legislation or preventive measures would stop the problem. Measures may help to a small degree, but there are so many variables and situations that are possible, that it's tough to discern. We already have lots of gun laws, policies, safes, locks, etc., but still it goes on.

I still think that it will take a whole lot more to take guns away. Chicago has hundreds of murders each year and look what happened when they tried to pass legislation to take guns.
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Old 12-17-2012, 06:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by c6vettedude View Post
I don't think any anti-gun legislation would make it at this point. Any sponsors on the Hill, know they'd be out of a job. As for UC's on campus's I don't think that would work either. Most are way too vast, you'd need a large force of UC's to make much of a difference. Also, how long would it take before they'd be known? Say I was a crazy person with a known UC in my class. I'd simply get up, walk out the door, duck back in and start firing. Since I know the UC is armed, I'd simply be waiting for him to stand to fire at me and pick him off easily. Everyone else would be ducking under their desk's or running for the back door.

If the root of the problem isn't tackled, then no legislation or preventive measures would stop the problem. Measures may help to a small degree, but there are so many variables and situations that are possible, that it's tough to discern. We already have lots of gun laws, policies, safes, locks, etc., but still it goes on.

I still think that it will take a whole lot more to take guns away. Chicago has hundreds of murders each year and look what happened when they tried to pass legislation to take guns.



Chicago has 27 shootings on weekends and sometimes 27 in a night during the warm weather.

You don't see National outcry News stories, etc. about that.

Why?

Because it's gang members kiling other gang memers.

You get numb. You expect it. It's like a war zone. Of course they shoot each other.

They will always get the guns they want.

But you get a tragic event where some nut job snuffing out little kids is a reason for gun control?

You will never prevent a mentally twisted individual from doing something horrible with gun control.

My two cents.
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I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
Old 12-17-2012, 06:43 AM   #4
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Are guns really the problem?

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,

(Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:04 AM   #5
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OK. We get it. Mental illness is the real problem. But the anti gun lobby will say Mental illness without guns makes mass murder much less likely. That is true, but unreasonable. This country will never become gun free. And we will never find a way to figure out which mentally ill people are going to commit mass murder. We will run in circles trying to prevent the unpreventable. And in the process, we will lose some more of our freedom.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:05 AM   #6
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Chicago has 27 shootings on weekends and sometimes 27 in a night during the warm weather.

You don't see National outcry News stories, etc. about that.

Why?

Because it's gang members kiling other gang memers.

You get numb. You expect it. It's like a war zone. Of course they shoot each other.

They will always get the guns they want.

But you get a tragic event where some nut job snuffing out little kids is a reason for gun control?

You will never prevent a mentally twisted individual from doing something horrible with gun control.

My two cents.

With regards to Chicago, there was a case where an old man felt threatend for his life and had a gun. Even though you know that gang members will kill each other, a good number of these killings were by kids killing kids who were trying to stay out of gangs, but were being forced in. Many also were the results of stray bullets. In fact, it's mostly kids that are doing the killing. Anyways, this old man held steadfast to his right to own a gun, and the community organized behind him and the legislation was dropped. Though mostly gang members commit these crimes, they don't live in a vacuum. They live in regular communities and hold law-abiding citizens hostage.

As for getting numb, perhaps the public at large does, but not the people who live in those neighborhoods. I grew up in a rather hazardous area, but was a bit oblivous to it to tell you the truth...for the most part, but people who don't live in those areas don't know the extreme fear that parents have when they send their kids off to school.

I remember the same thing happening in DC several decades ago. You couldn't even own a gun unless it was an antique with the firing mechanism removed. The murder rate climbed to the highest in the nation and was in the top 5 for a very long time. It took a long time, but the public battled back and regained their rights.

I know that Race is not a subject that people like to talk about, but as I mentioned in another Thread, race is always a factor in public policy. As it's always been in this country, the life of blacks , hispanics and other non-white groups simply aren't valued the same as whites. It doesn't take a Socialogist, Lawer or Criminologist to lay those facts out. That's why it takes hundred's of murders in inner-cities, compared to one of 2 school shooting in the suburbs to garner the same anti-gun rhetoric.

Anyways, as I see it, all life is precious, regardless what category we're put in. Something needs to be done, and as I see it, it boils down to the person. What moves, or motivate a person... his/her mind. Imho, if the mental health aspect isn't dealt with, then the senseless killings will continue.

As for inner-city crime...perhaps if we tried building up our own country, and giving our own people the chance and opportunites to prosper...as well as treating everyone equally...then I'm sure that will put a major dent in crime...at least for starters.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:10 AM   #7
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What moves, or motivate a person... his/her mind. Imho, if the mental health aspect isn't dealt with, then the senseless killings will continue.
I agree. I think a common thread in most of these killings is an interest in video games that involve killing. It has come out that Lanzo had Asberger's Disease and was a fan of violent video games. Many of these mass murderers are young and have a history with these games. I think it is probably unhealthy for our society to have these games. The mentally healthy people can handle them for what they are: entertainment. But mentally ill people seem to use them as a way of venting anger or something. I'm not sure, but this connection is bound to get a lot of attention in the coming days.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:13 AM   #8
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My son's school is set up correctly IMO. To gain entry into the school there is only one point. Even to get through that door you have to buzzed through speaker and cameras. Then you have to go past the administration offices to gain access to the rest of the school. The two doors that have access to the recess area both can only be opened from the inside. To get back in you have to press a telecom button and they check through a camera that is at each door before the is buzzed to be opened.

If one of the administration personnel was armed this would make access more difficult. I would keep the identities of the personnel that would be armed confidential that only the principal would know whom they were. Further more I think a panic button in each room would help also.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:31 AM   #9
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Are guns really the problem?

Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Colombine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

Jarred Viktor, age 15, stabbed his grandmother 61 times after 5 days on Paxil.

Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002,

(Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.
The first point that I made when the first Thread was posted on this shooting. Everyone should really look up the Youtube vid of the dad of the columbine shooter. The Phama industry is making billions hand over fist, all the while "creating" illnesses and convincing parents that their kids are ill or broken. They use the typical "fear" angle on parents who quite frankly imho aren't critical thinkers and don't take the time to do research or ask questions. As long as someone in a white lab coat says "here, take this, or give this to your kid", they take it as gospel.

The "rat" race is running parents ragged, and they want and expect a nice quite house when they get home. Only that's not the case as kids are rambunxious and full of energy, so the parents seek out the magic pill to render their kid's docile and quite. Only the sides and backlash (one of them always being suicidal thoughts and/or tendacies) of such medications only cause more problems. The parents take them back to the doctors, and yet more "dope" is prescribed.

As I mentioned in the first thread regarding this case, I'm waiting to see if this kid was on any medication.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:51 AM   #10
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My son's school is set up correctly IMO. To gain entry into the school there is only one point. Even to get through that door you have to buzzed through speaker and cameras. Then you have to go past the administration offices to gain access to the rest of the school. The two doors that have access to the recess area both can only be opened from the inside. To get back in you have to press a telecom button and they check through a camera that is at each door before the is buzzed to be opened.

If one of the administration personnel was armed this would make access more difficult. I would keep the identities of the personnel that would be armed confidential that only the principal would know whom they were. Further more I think a panic button in each room would help also.
I read somewhere that this shooter broke in a window and climbed in, bypassing all the security. He apparently wasn't buzzed in. Nearly any low level securty can be easily breached.
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Old 12-17-2012, 07:57 AM   #11
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A single bullet from an armed teacher or security guard on premises would have saved over 20 lives. Wake up!
normal people don,t do things like this, and if anyone intent on doing evil wants to they will find a way, , a bomb or poison gas, or just driving a truck at high speed thru a crowd, theres always some way to commit evil acts, but if the potential victim's can effectively fight back you limit the extent of damage evil people can do.

anti firearm liberals...who want to disarm the public even more...making us ALL, all the more exposed and relying on 'the government' for our protection..And the current administration policy is to never waste a crisis, just seems all to tailor made to the media, liberal agenda.

when are these gun control morons going to wake up , to the facts , it was their gun law, and a lack of the ability of the victims to defend them selves that was partly to blame for the extent of loss of life.. its called gun free school zone but all that did was stop a law abiding sane person from carrying their gun, so they had the means to stop this monster.
but IM sure all the liberal gun grabbers will be screaming, please do not bring common sense into this.

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Old 12-17-2012, 08:11 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
I read somewhere that this shooter broke in a window and climbed in, bypassing all the security. He apparently wasn't buzzed in. Nearly any low level securty can be easily breached.
Ya, I heard this too. He shot up two class rooms. Panic button and training the teachers to do lock down when the button is hit is a good start IMO. When the button is pressed this tells the whole school which room it was pressed in over the PA, someone to call the authorities at the same time, and activate the armed/trained faculty. Its not a perfect idea i know.

Last edited by Upheval; 12-17-2012 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 12-17-2012, 08:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by grumpyvette View Post



A single bullet from an armed teacher or security guard on premises would have saved over 20 lives. Wake up!
normal people don,t do things like this, and if anyone intent on doing evil wants to they will find a way, , a bomb or poison gas, or just driving a truck at high speed thru a crowd, theres always some way to commit evil acts, but if the potential victim's can effectively fight back you limit the extent of damage evil people can do.
anti firearm liberals...who want to disarm the public even more...making us ALL, all the more exposed and relying on 'the government' for our protection..And the current administration policy is to never waste a crisis, just seems all to tailor made to the media, liberal agenda.

when are these gun control morons going to wake up , to the facts , it was their gun law, and a lack of the ability of the victims to defend them selves that was partly to blame for the extent of loss of life.. its called gun free school zone but all that did was stop a law abiding sane person from carrying their gun, so they had the means to stop this monster.
but IM sure all the liberal gun grabbers will be screaming, please do not bring common sense into this.
I'm not against guns in general, but I have my doubts about the overall effectiveness of arming school teachers or administrators. If thousands of schools have tens of thousands of guns on premesis, it is much more likely one of those guns will be used in a more normal crime of passion. A teacher is jealous of another or students manage to get their hands on one of the guns and kill someone. I just don't think it is practical to arm schools unless it is with a trained peace officer.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:14 AM   #14
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Every time a tragedy like this occurs the gun control idiots come out in force. What happen was terrible, but on the back page of the la times was an article from China where some nut case cut 20 school kids with a knife. Where is the outcry for that mess, are we going to outlaw knives to. The kid up in Conn. was suppose to have mental problems,but got his mom's firearms which she had legally bought. All laws were obeyed and still this kid went off and loss of life occurred.
Maybe there is some truth to something someone else here has brought up ,that is the over medication of our children. Maybe instead of medicating our children we try a novel approach like being a parent instead of our children's friend. Maybe doing the job ourselves instead of relying on teachers or doctors or viedo games or other so called proffesionals to handle OUR kids is the answer.
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Old 12-17-2012, 09:15 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Texdentist View Post
I'm not against guns in general, but I have my doubts about the overall effectiveness of arming school teachers or administrators. If thousands of schools have tens of thousands of guns on premesis, it is much more likely one of those guns will be used in a more normal crime of passion. A teacher is jealous of another or students manage to get their hands on one of the guns and kill someone. I just don't think it is practical to arm schools unless it is with a trained peace officer.
And what is stopping something like this from happening now?
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