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Old 03-12-2011, 07:33 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by 69MyWay View Post
Let me say this. If you truly consider the case for Christ - it will take more faith to continue in Atheism, than to accept God. The faith required to believe there is no divine intelligent design to the entire universe - truly takes a great deal of creativity and faith.

Also, consider this. The bible teaches us about the nature of God. He is timeless. The word says that one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day. What does this mean? It easily means the SIX days of creation are not the 24 hour days that we have come to know. That is easily acceptable and without argument. In any event, a God that can create life would truly have the power to do it all in only six days, but the text does not indicate by any means it was six 24 hour days. Investigate this for yourself - don't be ignorant of what it actually says when you criticize it.

Also, do me a favor and take a look at the prophesy that occurred 700 years before Jesus was born.

Isaiah

6:9-10 - The Messiah will puzzle his listeners, of whom some will be turned off
7:13-14 his mother will be a virgin! She will call him Immanuel
8:14 The Jews will stumble over him
9:1-7 He will bring great light and liberation, especially to Galilee
11:1-10 He will be anointed by the Holy Spirit, He will make perfect decisions, resulting in peace
28:16 He will be like a firm cornerstone
35:5-6 He will heal the disabled
40:3 A forerunner will announce him
40:11 He will be caring and gentle like a shepherd
42:1-7 He will be sensitive, fair, and illuminating
49:1-7 He will be God's unique messenger
52-53 - He will suffer an excruciating death in order to pay for our sins
59:20 He will show up in Jerusalem as a Redeemer
61:1-3 He will bring good news to the oppressed


All in all - there were 48 unique prophesies regarding the coming Messiah extending from Psalms to within 300 years of Jesus birth.

He fulfilled every one of them - if you are into math and probability, the chances of one person being born and completing that is more than a trillion to one.

My favorite is Isaiah 53. When you read this - then see and learn who Jesus is - and when you discover it was written 700 years before his birth - it blows your mind.

Then you consider that everyone of his disciples died poor at the hands of brutal torture and pain - all while proclaiming Christ. Who would do this for a lie? Who would do this for a made up "stolen body" and failed false prophet.

Paul tells us that after the resurrection he was seen by over 500 people. Paul went on to suffer terribly - imprisoned twice and eventually beheaded. Paul - was known as Saul a destroyer of Christians - prior to coming face to face with the resurrected savior.

So...Jesus wasn't God in flesh - the word made man - the Messiah - the actual son of God that gave himself for all - then why did these people go on to live out a life of pain and sorrow to proclaim the good news? Doesn't sound like very much good news...eh?

After Jesus was crucified, why didn't the movement stop there? Is it because he did return - he was seen, people believed and went into the whole world to proclaim it....or is it all a fairytale?

That's for everybody individually to decide.

Jesus said to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.

So, I suggest everybody seek it - while there is still time. When you open your mind and look at the evidence, you will conclude it takes far more faith to convince yourself that there is no God - no life after death, and no eternal consequences to our decisions. Way more faith. You can disbelieve all you want - but that won't change the truth.


I just came back from 4:00 PM mass to read this.

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I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
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Old 03-13-2011, 04:34 AM   #122
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Well you guys are clearly convinced that your argument/faith is correct and anything else is false. There are many, MANY reasons to not believe what the Bible (and other religious texts) says, you are going to believe it no matter what people say.

The Bible was written by human beings THOUSANDS of years ago. It has been translated, re-translated, edited, translated some more, etc. over that time. Books that used to be in the Bible have been taken out (Jubilee and the Gospel of Judas are good examples), and so on.

Using the Bible as evidence is poor technique because there is very little of the Bible that can be backed up scientifically. For example, I recently read the story of Lot and his family (wife + 2 daughters), and in that story Lot's wife literally turns into a pillar of salt because she looks back as they're fleeing. Not only that, but earlier in the story Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob who've come to kill the angels, and after his wife turns to salt his daughters get him drunk and **** him in order to produce sons for him. Obviously it's impossible for a human being to turn into a pillar of salt, so if one part of a supposedly infallible text is false, then it makes sense to dismiss the rest of the so called miracles as false as well because there is literally NO evidence for any of them. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

You might counter with "well the New Testament overrules the Old Testament," well, this is an all or nothing sort of thing. If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God, then this is the type of stuff you have to believe literally happened. When science proves something from the Bible wrong, religious people will just say "well those stories are only metaphors LOL!" and then they have the audacity to say that it was all part of God's plan in the first place.

Again, this all comes down to probability. Is it POSSIBLE that a God exists and loves us and is the God described in the Bible? Yes, yes it is. However, it's just not very PROBABLE and there is absolutely NO convincing evidence to believe in it, so I think it's an illogical thing to believe.

People who refuse to believe uncomfortable truths (evolution, the possibility that there is no god and no point to life, etc.) are pointless to argue with because there is no way you can change their mind. Many are ignorant but they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, so arguing is kind of like trying to piss into the wind. Being ignorant is fine, but unless an ignorant person is willing to overcome their ignorance, there is no hope for them (just the hard truth). So I think I am done with this whole mess, and just going to concentrate on the vette/other topics.
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Old 03-13-2011, 06:59 AM   #123
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Well you guys are clearly convinced that your argument/faith is correct and anything else is false. There are many, MANY reasons to not believe what the Bible (and other religious texts) says, you are going to believe it no matter what people say.

The Bible was written by human beings THOUSANDS of years ago. It has been translated, re-translated, edited, translated some more, etc. over that time. Books that used to be in the Bible have been taken out (Jubilee and the Gospel of Judas are good examples), and so on.

Using the Bible as evidence is poor technique because there is very little of the Bible that can be backed up scientifically. For example, I recently read the story of Lot and his family (wife + 2 daughters), and in that story Lot's wife literally turns into a pillar of salt because she looks back as they're fleeing. Not only that, but earlier in the story Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob who've come to kill the angels, and after his wife turns to salt his daughters get him drunk and **** him in order to produce sons for him. Obviously it's impossible for a human being to turn into a pillar of salt, so if one part of a supposedly infallible text is false, then it makes sense to dismiss the rest of the so called miracles as false as well because there is literally NO evidence for any of them. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

You might counter with "well the New Testament overrules the Old Testament," well, this is an all or nothing sort of thing. If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God, then this is the type of stuff you have to believe literally happened. When science proves something from the Bible wrong, religious people will just say "well those stories are only metaphors LOL!" and then they have the audacity to say that it was all part of God's plan in the first place.

Again, this all comes down to probability. Is it POSSIBLE that a God exists and loves us and is the God described in the Bible? Yes, yes it is. However, it's just not very PROBABLE and there is absolutely NO convincing evidence to believe in it, so I think it's an illogical thing to believe.

People who refuse to believe uncomfortable truths (evolution, the possibility that there is no god and no point to life, etc.) are pointless to argue with because there is no way you can change their mind. Many are ignorant but they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, so arguing is kind of like trying to piss into the wind. Being ignorant is fine, but unless an ignorant person is willing to overcome their ignorance, there is no hope for them (just the hard truth). So I think I am done with this whole mess, and just going to concentrate on the vette/other topics.


I will light a candle for you.

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I'm not saying let's go kill all the stupid people...I'm just saying let's remove all the warning labels and let the problem sort itself out.
Old 03-13-2011, 07:20 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by usasealx View Post
Well you guys are clearly convinced that your argument/faith is correct and anything else is false. There are many, MANY reasons to not believe what the Bible (and other religious texts) says, you are going to believe it no matter what people say.

The Bible was written by human beings THOUSANDS of years ago. It has been translated, re-translated, edited, translated some more, etc. over that time. Books that used to be in the Bible have been taken out (Jubilee and the Gospel of Judas are good examples), and so on.

Using the Bible as evidence is poor technique because there is very little of the Bible that can be backed up scientifically. For example, I recently read the story of Lot and his family (wife + 2 daughters), and in that story Lot's wife literally turns into a pillar of salt because she looks back as they're fleeing. Not only that, but earlier in the story Lot offers his virgin daughters to the mob who've come to kill the angels, and after his wife turns to salt his daughters get him drunk and **** him in order to produce sons for him. Obviously it's impossible for a human being to turn into a pillar of salt, so if one part of a supposedly infallible text is false, then it makes sense to dismiss the rest of the so called miracles as false as well because there is literally NO evidence for any of them. None. Zip. Nada. Zilch.

You might counter with "well the New Testament overrules the Old Testament," well, this is an all or nothing sort of thing. If the Bible is supposed to be the infallible word of God, then this is the type of stuff you have to believe literally happened. When science proves something from the Bible wrong, religious people will just say "well those stories are only metaphors LOL!" and then they have the audacity to say that it was all part of God's plan in the first place.

Again, this all comes down to probability. Is it POSSIBLE that a God exists and loves us and is the God described in the Bible? Yes, yes it is. However, it's just not very PROBABLE and there is absolutely NO convincing evidence to believe in it, so I think it's an illogical thing to believe.

People who refuse to believe uncomfortable truths (evolution, the possibility that there is no god and no point to life, etc.) are pointless to argue with because there is no way you can change their mind. Many are ignorant but they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, so arguing is kind of like trying to piss into the wind. Being ignorant is fine, but unless an ignorant person is willing to overcome their ignorance, there is no hope for them (just the hard truth). So I think I am done with this whole mess, and just going to concentrate on the vette/other topics.
Again, he ends with weak and dumb. He isn't atheist, it is obiously just anti-Christian since he only wants to debate the bible and eveloution.
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:20 AM   #125
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I am not calling any religious folk weak or dumb, I am just stating for most its emotional, fear, or all they know. From the countless churches Ive been to.. it was very hard to find someone who really knew and understood the universe, time, size of it, and how biology/physics/science works.
This very same argument as proof, can be attributed to your belief system, my friend. As the vast majority of non-believers lack the same understanding of biology/physics/science's workings and awareness, that you attribute the lack of -and reason for belief...to those whom believe. As though your disbelief is due to a better and more complex understanding of life and it's origins... when in fact, it requires you to take the very same leap in faith... (albeit, Godless... or at the minimum, creator-less) as we do.

First and foremost, understand that both science and religion share an understanding of evolution. The nonbeliever, places his faith in a series of inconceivably impossible mutations, rooted in time... while the believer -believes in a guided evolution rooted in less time.

You are more then willing to provide instance of inconsistency within the bible... while completely ignoring the inconsistency within science. -Flat world... etc. You are more then willing to assign as reason... the many adaptations made to the writings, as nothing more then folklore, due to the "scientific" fact that man can not turn into salt. But, in your admittance of adaptation as proof against being Gods word, you ignore the possibility that within those adaptations... the word sand or ash in Aramaic, may translate to salt. Or, may not translate at all. There may be no translation for either. After all... the Bible also spoke of Moses and 40 days and 40 nights of rain. Parts of the world were at many times, utterly flooded. We did, after all, have a period of time where the vast majority of the planet was cover by ice. What form does melting ice take ? Science has proven this... has it not ? Is it such a "nonscientific" wise-tale to believe that at some point in the vastness of human history... a man would see the waters rising and gather his family on a flotilla... along with a male and female of every type of his livestock ? Or that maybe those adaptations over the thousands of years of being retold... have been embellished or misunderstood ?

I'm getting away from my evolutionary point. I apologize.

The most commonly held belief within evolution... is Darwinism. (look it up if you wish) Darwin believed in adaptation... or evolution due to inhabitants mutating, due to their surroundings rather then natural mutation over time. Science now holds that this theory was incorrect... that it is time itself that is the outcome of evolutionary change... and not our surroundings. Evolution requires genetic mutation and natural selection. Darwin was wrong... according to the newest belief within science. DNA replicates through a mistake and copies itself. In coping itself, a new code or attribute is introduced. It is this mistaken attribute that is considered "evolution". These mutations are almost always counterproductive... to the order of a thousand to the millionth power, to one- -(inconceivable)... especially when you consider that it has to do this twice, in order for two mutations to link forming a new chain in evolution. Science's answer to this, is time. Given enough time... the impossible becomes improbable. The improbable becomes the possible. The possible becomes a virtual certainty. One only has to wait... as time itself will preform miracles.

You would never bet on such an improbability... let alone submit it as proof. Yet, that is exactly what science has put forth as the most probable scenario given the evidence (or lack there of) presently agreed upon by the a community that scoffs and ridicules at the possibility of a design that is of intelligence... pointing to the bible as proof of their disbelief.

We believe in God... you believe in time. Both require a leap in faith.




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Old 03-15-2011, 04:38 AM   #126
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Just for the story, the flat world theory came from the church. Those who opposed it were burnt at the stake for heresy.
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Old 03-15-2011, 04:43 AM   #127
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If God created the universe, who created God?
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:43 AM   #128
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If God created the universe, who created God?
God is an infinite being, byond time.

Short answer as I have stated before, He just always was.
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Old 03-15-2011, 07:55 AM   #129
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God is an infinite being, beyond time.

Short answer as I have stated before, He just always was.
How is this possible and how do we know that this is the case?

If he has always been, what about Satan?
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Old 03-15-2011, 08:05 AM   #130
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How is this possible and how do we know that this is the case?
This is where it becomes faith.

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If he has always been, what about Satan?
He is a fallen angel created by God.
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:08 AM   #131
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Again, this all comes down to probability. Is it POSSIBLE that a God exists and loves us and is the God described in the Bible? Yes, yes it is. However, it's just not very PROBABLE and there is absolutely NO convincing evidence to believe in it, so I think it's an illogical thing to believe.
This is the exact same argument we use against Evolution, sure you can find examples of it in the fossil record ( you can find anything you are looking for) but the logic of the concept is not very PROBABLE.

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People who refuse to believe uncomfortable truths (evolution, the possibility that there is no god and no point to life, etc.) are pointless to argue with because there is no way you can change their mind. Many are ignorant but they refuse to acknowledge their ignorance, so arguing is kind of like trying to piss into the wind. Being ignorant is fine, but unless an ignorant person is willing to overcome their ignorance, there is no hope for them (just the hard truth). So I think I am done with this whole mess, and just going to concentrate on the vette/other topics.
Again.. you sound just like a Christian. YOU in fact are the one who refuses to believe in the uncomfortable truth that God does exist, we are here for a reason, and you will be held accountable in the end. I will probably never be able to change your mind, but that does not make you ignorant...
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:14 AM   #132
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Hmmm,

You are left/dem and an Atheist, right?

one for one so far.



(Actually I should have limited my observation to this post and those commenting instead of such a broad observation)
No Iam a true republican...one that was a republican before it was stolen by the religious nuts. One that believes the true spriit of the right....freedom of and from religion and government intervention in our personal lives. Oh yea and one that believes in fiscal conservativism. You know what used to make this country great. Once the republicans started ignoring that responsability in order to cater to the religious nut jobs this country took a hard turn left in fiscal terms.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:22 AM   #133
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but there has to be something to counteract the blatent liberal indoctrination of the youth. There are many topics pushed by the left that should not be- "alternate" families/lifestyles, revisionist history, ect
Yes and science....that is what seems to be highest on the list. And what is most important for our children to learn to be able to take care of us in our old age.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:26 AM   #134
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No Iam a true republican...one that was a republican before it was stolen by the religious nuts. One that believes the true spriit of the right....freedom of and from religion and government intervention in our personal lives. Oh yea and one that believes in fiscal conservativism. You know what used to make this country great. Once the republicans started ignoring that responsability in order to cater to the religious nut jobs this country took a hard turn left in fiscal terms.
The religious right really has minimal impact on policy in this country. Yes, the Republicans throw them a bone in the form of constantly giving lip service to the pro-life movement. But this is simply an effort to keep those religious voters where they will only have one voting choice. Other than that, it's really stretching it to say the religious nut-jobs have taken over the Republican Party. They are simply a wing of it, and the main focus of the Party is still fiscal matters.
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:48 AM   #135
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The religious right really has minimal impact on policy in this country. Yes, the Republicans throw them a bone in the form of constantly giving lip service to the pro-life movement. But this is simply an effort to keep those religious voters where they will only have one voting choice. Other than that, it's really stretching it to say the religious nut-jobs have taken over the Republican Party. They are simply a wing of it, and the main focus of the Party is still fiscal matters.
The latest republican president flies in the face of that claim. He thumped the bible while he spent and spent while borrowing it all. This was far from fiscaly conservative governing...it was all just socialy conservative, and wreckless. No true fiscal conservative can even get into the race since the religious right makes up a large enough portion of the republican party to keep only the most religious as the choice for all and that means people like GW Bush. Most fiscal conservatives don't give enough of a shit about religion to satisfy the religious right enough to get their vote. This is why religion should be kept out of politics, so we can choose a man for his true abilities to run a country, not his percieved love of god.
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