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Old 10-14-2018, 10:32 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Maniacmechanic1 View Post
Near all are Pro Tour where your at.
No Room to street race.
It's impossible to step on it for longer than 5 seconds.
You showed that.
Just cruise in your part of Florida.
Never gets cold.

Move to Illinois.
Real works weather changes here.
Real challanges.
Never. I like the things I build to last. I like to service them and see how they wear as the years wear on so I can make changes and be better and keep building better than the last and always be refining my work. It would break my heart to see the things I built decay so fast from rock salt on the roads to melt the ice and snow.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:32 AM   #17
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Home Forums > The Engine Shop / Non-Year Specific > Intake Systems , Fuel Systems and Related >
E15 should you worry?

Discussion in 'Intake Systems , Fuel Systems and Related' started by grumpyvette, Oct 19, 2010.

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  1. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    many of you gentlemen have seen warnings about use of the new E15 fuel containing 15% ethanol, thats similar to or like the current E10 with 10% ethanol, in the fuel,in that its not to be used in cars older than 2007
    the jurys still out guys!
    this seems to be where we are headed whether we want to go that route or not,
    adding 15% ethanol makes gas burn a bit cooler and as such it tends to increase the effective octane, the bad part is that it tends to absorb moisture if the car sits for weeks between drives, and ethanol tends to eat some plastics and aluminum over long term storage, or long term use, if the cars not designed to use ethanol
    adding a lubricant to the fuel like marvel mystery oil , its use helps, reduce corrosion issues noticeably from the tests Ive seen,but its not a cure (about 6 oz per 10 gallons of fuel).
    "Can we use stabil? Will it be at all pumps or just selected pumps? i wonder if a lead substitute can be use with the E 15. "

    its NOT a low octane issue and because its not a lead substitute won,t do much for you
    ethanol has approximately 20-30% less fuel energy per gallon of fuel/air mix burnt,but you can burn about 51% more ethanol,mixed with air and use higher compression for a net gain in power per power stroke in an engine designed to maximize ethanol's burn characteristics
    but your only dealing with a minimal increase in the percentage of ethanol added to the gas so the change is minimal or almost a non-issue
    http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/ne ... -vehicles/

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... r-vehicles

    http://www.brighterenergy.org/16344/new ... anol-fuel/
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Oct 19, 2010 Edit Delete Report
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  2. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    Kernel Knowledge: One man on a mission to show how ethanol is wrecking your engine

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-plating-pump-diaphragms.10040/#post-39044

    BTW IF YOU WANT TO AVOID ETHANOL LACED FUEL

    http://pure-gas.org/
    has anyone else noticed the fuel you get from the local gas stations is causing problems?
    I,m seeing a good deal more rust and oxidized metal causing carburetor problems,EVEN WITH E10
    Ive seen several guys having rather,obvious corrosion issues in the carburetors of muscle cars that don,t get driven a great deal with the current fuel, and Ive had to replace my weed trimmers, carburetor for similar issues , it seem s that much of the current fuel is less stable over the longer term, its probably that 10%-15% ethanol but its beginning to show up as a suspected cause in a lot of the tuning issues I see, at a far higher frequency that the older fuel caused, especially when I disassemble and inspect carburetors.
    its looking as though the fuel separates over time, into a semi corrosive mix.

    BTW alcohol in fuel tends to cause aluminum to oxidize over time

    http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
    Due to the instability of gas containing alcohol, shelf life is less than 3 months according to the fuel manufacturers, this is a HUGE issue with engines that don,t get used constantly like lawn equipment, or rarely driven muscle cars

    August 24, 2011

    Kernal_Main
    Kernal_2

    View larger images

    To leave one of Ed Syrocki’s standing-room-only ethanol education seminars is to go home amazed, enlightened, and probably a little upset. Syrocki doesn’t just claim ethanol destroys fuel lines, wrecks fuel pumps and clogs accelerators—he lets you see the damage for yourself. Find out why Syrocki is on a one-man grassroots campaign to educate historic vehicle owners about the damage ethanol fuel is doing to their engines.

    Ed Syrocki just might be the only mechanic in America who’s tired of getting paid for his work.

    “It about my reputation—my ability to fix an engine,” says the owner of EMS Classic Car Care of Warren, Michigan. “It’s being called into question because of things I can’t control.”

    What Syrocki can’t control is what ethanol-blended fuel does to his customers’ engines. Since 1998, Syrocki has specialized in repairing and maintaining all types of historic vehicles.

    “From Corvairs to Lamborghinis,” he says. “We don’t specialize in restoration. We specialize in making these cars run, and run well.”

    Syrocki is plain-spoken and modest about the quality of his work, but the constant parade of customers who travel far and wide to his Warren, Michigan, garage are testament to his integrity and reputation. Since founding EMS Classic Car Care in 1998, feature stories have appeared in a number of automotive magazines and national newspapers. Customers have gone on to present cars at the Meadow Brook Concours and other top shows and concours.

    Despite the wheelchair and crutches he has used since contracting polio in 1957, Syrocki can be found working under the hood almost every day of the week. But these days, he says, most of his hours seem to be spent diagnosing engine problems caused by ethanol-blended fuel.

    More Time, More Repairs

    Ethanol—a blend of ethyl alcohol and gasoline (usually 10 percent ethanol, known as E10)—acts as a solvent that is believed to cause problems for older cars with engines not designed for this type of fuel.

    “In the past three years, work on fuel-related repairs has more than doubled,” he says. “Gas tanks, floats going bad, fuel pumps, carburetors—where it used to be that most of our work was related to other mechanical problems, now three days every week is spent working on cars with fuel systems damaged by ethanol-blended fuel.”

    Since founding the company, Syrocki has always made follow-up calls to customers after their car left his shop to see how the vehicle was performing.

    “But people started calling me and saying the same problem was back,” he says. “And it wasn’t just after a long winter ‘sitting period’ when the car was left in the garage. I found that E10 damage to a vehicle’s fuel systems can begin if the car is left to sit only a few weeks. Based on what I seen, I believe that with E15 the damage would be almost instantaneous.”

    In the Trenches

    For the last three years, Syrocki has collected cracked and damaged fuel system parts. He’s conducted his own fuel tests. When a customer would reappear complaining of the same engine trouble over and over again, Syrocki took the time to show them gas samples so they could see ethanol fuel separation. He tore apart gas tanks and cut open damaged fuel lines to show the effects of ethanol. Then he also told customers what they could do to prevent the damage in the future:

    “Use a soy-based fuel additive,” he says (Syrocki recommends Shaeffer Oil’s Soy Ultra, which encapsulates the damaging water molecules ethanol fuel attracts). “Never let the vehicle sit without topping off the tank and keep your fingers crossed.”

    Finally, one Saturday this past July, Syrocki decided to take his findings and his message to the masses. He opened his garage and on the night of his first free slide show and three-hour presentation, every one of the 200 chairs in the place was full.

    Ethanol Show-And-Tell

    “I’m just a mechanic who fixes this stuff,” he says. “I’m not a scientist, but people were spellbound. The seminar is like a show-and-tell.”

    Syrocki does for a room full of people what he used to do for customers, one at a time. He’s conducted three ethanol education seminars for historic vehicle enthusiasts this summer and is planning more.

    “I’m volunteering all my time because ethanol is just wrong,” he says, adding that he has yet to find a sure-fire cure to help historic vehicle owners completely protect their investment. “I tell people to contact their senators and demand that we just get rid of it.”

    With government subsidies and farmers making money on corn grown for fuel, Syrocki understands that ethanol might never go away. In the meantime, he’d be happy to see states be able to opt out of using ethanol fuel or simply to see a lonely pump in the corner of every filling station that serves up pure unleaded fuel.

    “I understand the market of those in the business of ethanol. I have a market for repairs,” says Syrocki. “I just don’t believe in letting damage happen on the backs of others. And I don’t like having to do the same job twice.”

    The Historic Vehicle Association has already assisted Ed Syrocki in providing ethanol education materials, information on how to contact lawmakers, sample letters from individuals and clubs to congress and direction on how to sign our EthaNo Petition. To find out how you can attend the next ethanol education seminar hosted by Syrocki should contact him through his website
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2016
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Aug 31, 2011 Edit History Delete Report
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  3. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/co ... php?cID=82

    http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/co ... php?cID=81

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...damage-engine/

    http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... h/me1.html

    http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22198/

    http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp ... ewall.html

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... age-engine

    heres a few links to info on setting up for and running E85 fuel, its a reasonably cheap alternative to race octane fuel as its far less likely to detonate in a high compression engine, as its 85% ETHANOL ALCOHOL, now that will obviously require changes to your fuel and induction and ignition systems but it is an option, if you want to have a good deal more potential horsepower
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2017
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Mar 27, 2012 Edit History Delete Report
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Maniacmechanic1 View Post

I feel somewhat less informed for reading that. And BTW, are you trying to insinuate that now grumpy is or might be or might have ever been near the level of "professional tuner"? That he should be taken as an authority on how to run a specific fuel in a given engine? hmmm. Well, I personally would like to see some of grumpy's tuning work. I have posted up no shortage, again over the years, of hptuners, Jet DST, TunerCats, AEM Tuner, and other tuning solutions I have used to properly calibrate an engine. Haven't seen too much of that anywhere over on grumpy's site. Nice ratrod he built, though.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:40 AM   #19
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Never. I like the things I build to last. I like to service them and see how they wear as the years wear on so I can make changes and be better and keep building better than the last and always be refining my work. It would break my heart to see the things I built decay so fast from rock salt on the roads to melt the ice and snow.
When I see people from Florida here in Winter they are literally dieing from the cold weather.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:43 AM   #20
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I feel somewhat less informed for reading that. And BTW, are you trying to insinuate that now grumpy is or might be or might have ever been near the level of "professional tuner"? That he should be taken as an authority on how to run a specific fuel in a given engine? hmmm. Well, I personally would like to see some of grumpy's tuning work. I have posted up no shortage, again over the years, of hptuners, Jet DST, TunerCats, AEM Tuner, and other tuning solutions I have used to properly calibrate an engine. Haven't seen too much of that anywhere over on grumpy's site. Nice ratrod he built, though.

I know one thing for sure Wiz He had a Faster Corvette than You have back in his prime days.
It Did wheelstands on launch.
Pretty Bass in my Book.
He built it & Tuned it.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:44 AM   #21
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http://garage.grumpysperformance.com...02/#post-49480
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:46 AM   #22
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  1. chromebumpers, Apr 2, 2015 Edit Delete Report
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  2. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    All gasoline breaks down over time, most gas absorbs moisture from the air to some extent, ethanol laced fuel is especially prone to this moisture absorption.
    ethanol is hygroscopic
    RELATED USEFUL INFO
    Because ethanol has an octane rating of 113, adding 10% -25% ethanol to gasoline raises the finished fuel's octane rating, but lowers its ability to help lubricate the upper cylinder surfaces, and tends to increase the chances for corrosion

    http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html

    http://www.georgebelton.com/E85Calculator.php

    https://docs.google.com/a/langevins....laOGRtWXc/edit

    http://forums.turbobricks.com/showthread.php?t=73061

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-e85-in-your-old-muscle-car.2141/#post-5780

    Technical facts about the mentioned fuels:

    E85 requires 42% more fuel to reach stoich,
    even if that is not what you may come up with when doing calculations, based on the table below.
    This is because the injector flow is slightly different when using E85 among many other things.
    I cant really think of at this time (will be added at a later time).


    Fuel ........................ AFRst ........ FARst ....... Equivalence Ratio ... Lambda
    Gas stoich ................ 14.7 .......... 0.068 ................ 1 ................... 1
    Gas max power rich .... 12.5 .......... 0.08 ................. 1.176 .............. 0.8503
    Gas max power lean .... 13.23 ........ 0.0755 .............. 1.111 ............. 0.900
    E85 stoich .................. 9.765 ....... 0.10235 ............ 1 ................... 1
    E85 max power rich ...... 6.975 ....... 0.1434 .............. 1.40 ............... 0.7143
    E85 max power lean ..... 8.4687 ...... 0.118 ............... 1.153 .............. 0.8673
    E100 stoich ................ 9.0078 ...... 0.111 ............... 1 .................... 1
    E100 max power rich .... 6.429 ........ 0.155 .............. 1.4 .................. 0.714
    E100 max power lean .... 7.8 .... ...... 0.128 .............. 1.15 ................ 0.870

    The term AFRst refers to the Air Fuel Ratio under stoichiometric, or ideal air fuel ratio mixture conditions. FARst refers to the Fuel Air Ratio under stoichiometric conditions, and is simply the reciprocal of AFRst.

    Equivalence Ratio is the ratio of actual Fuel Air Ratio to Stoichiometric Fuel Air Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express richer mixtures. Lambda is the ratio of actual Air Fuel Ratio to Stoichiometric Air Fuel Ratio; it provides an intuitive way to express leanness conditions (i.e., less fuel, less rich) mixtures of fuel and air.

    When driving purely on E85 you can blend it with up to 25% gasoline in case you want to raise the AFR number used to produce max. power. In that case you can raise the boost even further since the volume of fuel needed to reach the desired lambda is decreased.

    hygroscopic
    ˌhīɡrəˈskpik/
    adjective
    (of a substance) tending to absorb moisture from the air.

    water combined with ethanol is highly corrosive if left in contact with most metals over long time periods
    the ability of gasoline to quickly and easily vaporize tends to degrade over time making it significantly less easily ignited as its the vapor not the liquid component of the fuel that burns the most efficiently, normally heat helps rapidly atomize and vaporize the fuel, but as fuel ages the easily vaporized components tend to be lost to evaporation, leaving a less easily ignited and usually DARKER COLORED LIQUID.
    mixing the remaining old gas with new fuel will generally help but not cure the issue!
    I use STA-BIL marine fuel additive in my lesser used engines, but reading the info on various site the LONGEST listed time frame it seems to work for as designed was about 2 years, if I had gas over 2 years old ID personally drain the tank, add stabil, plus a name brand fuel system cleaner and a fresh fuel filter,add fresh non-alcohol laced fuel, and flush the fuel rail and or car fuel bowls, before using the car or engine,
    Id probably use the old fuel I drained to clean parts or ignite a trash pile, yeah you might be able to mix it with fresh fuel and use it but the chances of it having absorbed moisture, separated into various less than ideal for use as a fuel,components while sitting for over two years,or causing issues with the engine that might damage it,would just not be worth the risk in my opinion.


    http://www.goldeagle.com/tips-tools/top ... s-debunked

    http://www.sta-bil360.com/how-it-works

    there ARE ETHANOL FREE GAS STATIONS LISTED, when you NEED TO FILL A MUSCLE CAR TANK, HERES MY LOCAL STATION, yes it costs more short term, easily an extra 70-80 cents a gallon, but you don,t run nearly the same risk of trashing your muscle cars engine and fuel delivery systems
    http://pure-gas.org/extensions/map.html

    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 25, 2016
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Apr 2, 2015 Edit History Delete Report
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  3. NOT A TA reliable source of info



    Chemical engineer for gas company told me shelf like of modern ethanol laced gas is about 8 weeks. If you're going to keep it longer use an additive like Grumpy suggests. Old gas (but not really old) can be diluted with new gas & burned up a little at a time in a daily driver. Fill the tank, drive out a couple gallons and put in a couple gallons of the old stuff to top it off, then run it down to almost empty & repeat.
    NOT A TA, Apr 2, 2015 Edit Delete Warn Report
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:49 AM   #23
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So this is my best attempt at offering help to the uninformed here on DC. These books will help clear up the confusion of the weird things we have all read on the internet. Here is the basic course:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...s-3-x-software
Here is the transmission tuning book:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...n-tuning-guide
And here is the advanced course which will help those who are struggling with what to believe in this thread:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...me-course-2-24
And here is that same advanced course for gen v:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...at-home-course

Now this is where we all will find the REAL knowledge. Rather than just different peoples opinions and ideas. In these books is the TRUTH.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #24
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So this is my best attempt at offering help to the uninformed here on DC. These books will help clear up the confusion of the weird things we have all read on the internet. Here is the basic course:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...s-3-x-software
Here is the transmission tuning book:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...n-tuning-guide
And here is the advanced course which will help those who are struggling with what to believe in this thread:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...me-course-2-24
And here is that same advanced course for gen v:
https://thetuningschool.com/products...at-home-course

Now this is where we all will find the REAL knowledge. Rather than just different peoples opinions and ideas. In these books is the TRUTH.
PROTOUR ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR PART OF FLORIDA.
THAT IS IT.

It's Non existent in the Rest of The USA.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:52 AM   #25
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I know one thing for sure Wiz He had a Faster Corvette than You have back in his prime days.
It Did wheelstands on launch.
Pretty Bass in my Book.
He built it & Tuned it.
Bud, racecar is your demon. Not mine. I profoundly understand that the best things in this world are purpose built. I would only build my corvette for the track if I were able to make it a track car. But I cant. So my DD Corvette has a low comp LS3 that absolutely loves the 87 octane and has still today never been on a dyno in my time with it and has never had any real or meaningful wot tuning work done. Even tho that motor has been in there for 3 years now. I would only hope that someone chasing power in a corvette were able to make theirs faster than mine. lol.
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:56 AM   #26
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Bud, racecar is your demon. Not mine. I profoundly understand that the best things in this world are purpose built. I would only build my corvette for the track if I were able to make it a track car. But I cant. So my DD Corvette has a low comp LS3 that absolutely loves the 87 octane and has still today never been on a dyno in my time with it and has never had any real or meaningful wot tuning work done. Even tho that motor has been in there for 3 years now. I would only hope that someone chasing power in a corvette were able to make theirs faster than mine. lol.
Cost of living is Super High where your at.
Mechanics held back pay is only so much and not getting paid $100,000-300,000 per year .
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Old 10-14-2018, 10:57 AM   #27
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PROTOUR ONLY EXISTS IN YOUR PART OF FLORIDA.
THAT IS IT.

It's Non existent in the Rest of The USA.
None of those links have a damn thing to do with pro tour. They are all to books from the tuning school that will provide you with much needed education on tuning and tuning strategies for GM vehicles. These books are not a hodge podge of peoples bad ideas. These books are printed truth and the price of them reflects that. These books offer genuine corrections for our bad thoughts and ideas here.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:03 AM   #28
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None of those links have a damn thing to do with pro tour. They are all to books from the tuning school that will provide you with much needed education on tuning and tuning strategies for GM vehicles. These books are not a hodge podge of peoples bad ideas. These books are printed truth and the price of them reflects that. These books offer genuine corrections for our bad thoughts and ideas here.
The Thermal Dynamic Efficiency of a spark ignited engine is raised much higher with static compression ratio of 13.0 -14.0 : 1.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:03 AM   #29
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Cost of living is Super High where your at.
Mechanics held back pay is only so much and not getting paid $100,000-300,000 per year .

The cost of living is high here because all the people with money live here. Again does this make sense or does this make a lot of sense?? If you are good at what you do that means there is job security for you here. If you are not good at what you do then you will fail no matter where you go and you should find something you are good at to do just so you can be successful in your life. I have been right here in the same spot on the same corner working on the same stuff for 8 years now. What does this say about me??? realizing that all other mechanics sty at a job until the comebacks get so great it is better to just walk away and start over elsewhere? I have seen so much of that from my co workers over my career. It is so great to march to the beat of a different drum.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:08 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maniacmechanic1 View Post
The Thermal Dynamic Efficiency of a spark ignited engine is raised much higher with static compression ratio of 13.0 -14.0 : 1.

Well that's a nice thought. You know what a better thought is? If you just setup a chart that mirrors the base timing map and log delivered engine torque over that map, then you can make changes to your ignition timing and actually find out what the best timing is for any engine just by getting each cell to where it sees the highest delivered engine torque. This works for idle and part throttle power tuning as well as wot tuning. No ideas. Tuning is all about letting the engine tell you what it wants and you understanding how to understand this powerful concept.


Go buy them books, bud. They will open your mind.
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