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Old 10-22-2008, 05:29 PM   #91
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I have to run tonight but I will respond tommorow morning...
I will be interested to hear your response.

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well hidden about the crickets.
hehe, I didn't see any need to make another post at that time.



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Old 10-22-2008, 11:36 PM   #92
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Hey hey !!! Nice sig plate



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Former Democrat Elbert Guillory:
At the heart of liberalism is the idea that only a great and powerful big government can be the benefactor of social justice for all Americans. But the left is only concerned with one thing — control. And they disguise this control as charity. Programs such as welfare, food stamps, these programs aren’t designed to lift black Americans out of poverty, they were always intended as a mechanism for politicians to control the black community
Old 10-23-2008, 07:45 AM   #93
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Hey hey !!! Nice sig plate
I had to mod it some.




You still post here Machine?

And the crickets are getting louder....




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Old 10-23-2008, 10:26 PM   #94
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and this re-distribution of wealth he is proposing will drive productivity down and movers and shakers away...


... folks need to do some digging on what happened to the swiss GDP...


please.. just say no to socialism!!
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Old 10-24-2008, 05:53 AM   #95
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Where did Machine go?



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Old 10-24-2008, 09:28 AM   #96
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Finally, some good debate.

Clinton really couldn't spend like Obama can, because he did not have a supermajority like Obama will likely have. Bill Clinton was much closer to the center than Obama, Hillary was the liberal in that relationship. Bill pandered to the liberals to get elected in '92 and he pandered to the middle class to get elected in '96 (Tax cut that didn't happen).

Spreading the burden of taxes? By creating a country where more than half the people in that country don't pay taxes? I can't see where that is spreading the burden? The people that benefit from that government are the people who don't contribute to it. Wouldn't fair be the same rate for everyone? I can handle the EIC and Medicade/Medicare and even swallow other social programs designed to actually help people succeed. But to call taxing 20% of the country fair, is a big stretch.

And about the tax increase on corporations, you know how business works and you know as well as I do that the extra tax will end up in the cost of the product. The result will be higher prices for everyone equally, but the people who will suffer from higher prices will be the poorer people. True?

The same goes for energy, our energy situation is going to be very dire over the next few years, I do know that this country can't be weaned off oil overnight. And again, when energy prices go up, the people hurt the most are poorer people. If all the newer technologies (wind, solar ect..) were all that viable, why hasn't anyone brought this to the free market and started the process? Why does government have to force us into it?

Boy you are an impatient cuss....I do have a business to run you know.

I do not see Obama spending like Bush because I see him as a good business man. How else could he have run the campaign that he has run. He could turn around when he gets elected and do just what you said that he will do but then he wouldn't get reelected. The republican record is Reagan increased spending and grew government, Bush 41 raised taxes to pay for Reagans excesses and got booted out by the republicans. Bush 43 learns his lesson and does just like Reagan but bigger. We can't afford to see more of this kind of spending and government growth.

The fair tax that you propose would be great for me, but as has been said here many times before, it will never happen. There are too many tax professionals who would loose their livelyhoods, and it would depress consumerism, which unfortunatly has been our most reliable economic engine. To set the same tax rate for everyone would not be fair since I, as an upper income earner have taken more advantage of the US system. I know you see that as bullshit but it is true. I have worked very hard to get where I am and I get rewarded well for that, but I also was able to start my business with help from the system. I got an SBA loan to get started, I use the transportation system in this country way more than somebody who simply commutes to work every day. Every one of my employees is a product of the public education system. I take advantage of laws that no one who doesn't own a business can take advantage of. There are many other examples of how I use the system more than others and why I should then pay more in taxes. The other side of the issue is that if we taxed everyone at the same rate you (assuming you make less than I do) would have to pay a lot more tax than you currently pay to make up for all the money that I pay. That would also kill the economy as now the majority of the people wouldn't be able to buy anything after their huge tax bill. If we didn't have a huge deficit and national debt then things could be different but the reality of the matter is we have a huge debt to pay and I am willing to pay more to get it paid off.

As for tax increases being passed on to consumers...that would be true if I had no competition, but I do. If I passed on every increase to my costs that came along, I would have had to double my prices with the rises in energy costs that we just went through. I was not able to do that so I had to just increase my efficiency to make up for increased costs. I did this by buying new more efficient machines, and implementing new more efficient methods of making the parts I make. My competitors who just raised prices are mostly gone, because the market would not bare it. furthermore, if my taxes go up, they go up on my profits not my total sales, how would I back the increase of taxes on my profits into my initial costs. It would simply be a price that I would have to pay.

As for energy...While it is true that high energy costs hurt the poor it also hurts me, because I use a lot more energy than the average person when you factor in all the energy I use and cause to be used. This is why getting energy independent is so important to me. To just drill for more oil is a pipe dream as our proven reserves are way less than we use. I agree with Pickens on this issue, that we should drill now but we should also start developing new energy that can wean us off of oil. Solar and wind, need government support to get to the economies of scale needed to become totaly viable. But this was and is still being done for oil. Do you think that we are realy in Iraq to free the Iraqi people...no we are there to keep the oil flowing to us, so we have subsidised oil in that region by nearly 3 trillion dollars. If we had spent that on solar and wind generation we would be well on our way to energy independence. Nuclear energy is a good and viable source of energy but is very limited until we find an acceptable way of disposing of the waste. Certainly fuel rods should be reprocessed and that would reduce the amount of waste but the waste that comes after reprocessing is even more dangerous. As soon as we get the "not in my back yard folks" to allow for proper disposal of waste then Nuclear will be a great alternative.

I know that you may not be swayed by my arguments, but these are my views, and I hope they give you a new perspective.
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Old 10-24-2008, 09:53 AM   #97
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Wow! Civilized discussion!


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Old 10-24-2008, 09:58 AM   #98
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Wow! Civilized discussion!


Blow it out your piehole you commie so and so...J/K.
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Old 10-24-2008, 10:16 AM   #99
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Boy you are an impatient cuss....I do have a business to run you know.

I do not see Obama spending like Bush because I see him as a good business man. How else could he have run the campaign that he has run. He could turn around when he gets elected and do just what you said that he will do but then he wouldn't get reelected. The republican record is Reagan increased spending and grew government, Bush 41 raised taxes to pay for Reagans excesses and got booted out by the republicans. Bush 43 learns his lesson and does just like Reagan but bigger. We can't afford to see more of this kind of spending and government growth.
I think we are all in agreement that GW went ape shit on the spending. But what gives you any idea about Obama being a good business man, when he has only worked in the private sector 1 time and it was less than 2 years? He has been a bureaucrat his entire professional life. I don't know that he has run such a great campaign, he has spent $605 million and so far he is tied with an old white guy and a moose-hunting redneck chic who he has outspent 4 or 5 to1. I don't know what business your in, but those numbers look horrible to me. According to his own plan, he will add more spending than McCain (on paper, who knows in reality) and his numbers are fuzzy because no one can really determine what his healthcare will cost. If your for lower spending, wouldn't McCain's plan fit you better?

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The fair tax that you propose would be great for me, but as has been said here many times before, it will never happen. There are too many tax professionals who would loose their livelyhoods, and it would depress consumerism, which unfortunatly has been our most reliable economic engine. To set the same tax rate for everyone would not be fair since I, as an upper income earner have taken more advantage of the US system. I know you see that as bullshit but it is true. I have worked very hard to get where I am and I get rewarded well for that, but I also was able to start my business with help from the system. I got an SBA loan to get started, I use the transportation system in this country way more than somebody who simply commutes to work every day. Every one of my employees is a product of the public education system. I take advantage of laws that no one who doesn't own a business can take advantage of. There are many other examples of how I use the system more than others and why I should then pay more in taxes. The other side of the issue is that if we taxed everyone at the same rate you (assuming you make less than I do) would have to pay a lot more tax than you currently pay to make up for all the money that I pay. That would also kill the economy as now the majority of the people wouldn't be able to buy anything after their huge tax bill. If we didn't have a huge deficit and national debt then things could be different but the reality of the matter is we have a huge debt to pay and I am willing to pay more to get it paid off.
As for his tax plan, doesn't it hurt the poorer people more in the end? I mean if prices go up to cover the tax (unlike you, 90% companies/manufacturers don't feel patriotic about uncle Sam being in their pocket more) don't that make it hard for poorer people to buy things, heat their homes, feed their kids? So in turn, would that not add to the welfare burden even more? And is it welfare when you are paying more than 60% of the people in the country with money confiscated from less than 20% of the people?

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As for tax increases being passed on to consumers...that would be true if I had no competition, but I do. If I passed on every increase to my costs that came along, I would have had to double my prices with the rises in energy costs that we just went through. I was not able to do that so I had to just increase my efficiency to make up for increased costs. I did this by buying new more efficient machines, and implementing new more efficient methods of making the parts I make. My competitors who just raised prices are mostly gone, because the market would not bare it. furthermore, if my taxes go up, they go up on my profits not my total sales, how would I back the increase of taxes on my profits into my initial costs. It would simply be a price that I would have to pay.
A good savvy business owner can do alot to balance out costs and create efficiency. You sound like you work pretty hard and you might be in a niche market. But do you see major companies who already toy with the idea of moving to a more tax friendly nation, hitting the door running? Or staying and making do with less while their stockholders say WTF is going on there? I can tell you one thing for sure, most businesses don't look at it as a "price I have to pay" they look at it for what it is.
Costs go up, cuts have to happen somewhere unless you raise prices. The most expensive part of most manufacturing is labor, and by eliminating secret ballots, you can bet your ass that cost is going up too. Combine all the above items and you have a perfect storm. You know this as well as I do.


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As for energy...While it is true that high energy costs hurt the poor it also hurts me, because I use a lot more energy than the average person when you factor in all the energy I use and cause to be used. This is why getting energy independent is so important to me. To just drill for more oil is a pipe dream as our proven reserves are way less than we use. I agree with Pickens on this issue, that we should drill now but we should also start developing new energy that can wean us off of oil. Solar and wind, need government support to get to the economies of scale needed to become totaly viable. But this was and is still being done for oil. Do you think that we are realy in Iraq to free the Iraqi people...no we are there to keep the oil flowing to us, so we have subsidised oil in that region by nearly 3 trillion dollars. If we had spent that on solar and wind generation we would be well on our way to energy independence. Nuclear energy is a good and viable source of energy but is very limited until we find an acceptable way of disposing of the waste. Certainly fuel rods should be reprocessed and that would reduce the amount of waste but the waste that comes after reprocessing is even more dangerous. As soon as we get the "not in my back yard folks" to allow for proper disposal of waste then Nuclear will be a great alternative.
Drilling is not the answer, but drilling here and now is a must because any new technology is several years off especially if the government has a hand in it. Government didn't drive oil, government didn't drive electricity, phone services, internet service etc.. capitalism drove those things to us and government drove the cost of those things up. If Pickens plan is so good, why isn't he doing it? Why isn't some entrepreneur latching onto that and running with it? I am a firm believer that when you bring a good idea/product to market you will be successful. Pickens don't want to bring that to market, he wants to get richer on it without getting his hands dirty. He wants the gov handout part IMO.
Nuclear is safe now, look all over the world. Obama isn't going to build any nuclear plants, Obama is not interested in clean coal, it goes against his party's mantra. Their idea is that man alone made global warming by using fossil fuels. They are not going to get coal, oil, nuclear out the people any time soon. They will push the electric cars, but let's look at reality, our grids are already overloaded, add 25 million electric cars to that and you can see what happens. Bottom line, his energy plan is vague and reeks of bureaucracy. And when energy goes up, wouldn't you agree than Mr.$8 per hour is gonna get hurt much more than you?

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I know that you may not be swayed by my arguments, but these are my views, and I hope they give you a new perspective.
After what we have been doing previsouly, this is a nice change of pace. I appreciate everyones views. We aren't going to sway each other anytime soon, I agree.



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Old 10-24-2008, 10:19 AM   #100
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Blow it out your piehole you commie so and so...J/K.




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Old 10-24-2008, 11:11 AM   #101
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Obama has run his campaign for 2 years now. He has maintained excelent discipline in himself and his staff for that period. He defeated the most likely candidate to be the Democratic nominee, from out of nowhere. If you don't think that is running a good campaign my friend, you are kidding yourself.

I disagree with your analysis of taxes driving up prices to the poor. Did prices go way down when Bush cut taxes to the wealthy? Nope.

As for companies running to other countries.....these unpatriotic bastards should be taxed much higher to get back into the US market if they move out of the country. Like Obama wants to do.
This is the problem with trickel down economics. If this was the only country in the world it would make sense that if you give the wealthy people more money they will spend more and help the economy. But when you can instead take that extra money and send it to another country all you do is drain our country of capital.

As for your argument about energy...you are way off. Government has helped every business that you mention. Oil companies were given oil leases without having to give a share of the value of the oil to the people (us) who owned the land. The electric grid is built on Government (us) owned land without having to give us a cut of the profits. Furthermore the government built dams that power companies use to generate more electricity that they sell to us without paying for the costs of building the dams. The phone company was allowed to again use government land to run thier lines on and they were also given a monopoly to ensure the profitability of their new technology.
Every new technology that has been successfull in this country has had help from the government. The very ability of you and I to have this discussion is thanks to the internet which was a government built technology. To be sure private companies are the ones who bring these technologies to the market but without the support of governement these businesses would have had nothing to bring to the market place. Furthermore without the interstate highway system, a government built road system, none of these businesses could have survived. I am not saying that government is the best entity to give us services, but the infrastructure that a country needs to run from day to day can only be done by an entity that holds the interests of the country first, not profit, and that can only be done by a government.
Pickens is not looking for the government to buy him his windmills he simply wants the government to run the hightension lines that they ran for other producers to his windmill farms.

As for party mantras and party ideology...I think that here is where we can find our core differences. The republican party has forever had the mantra of small government and staying out of our lives. But thier mantra has not been followed for way too long. This act of saying one thing and doing another is destroying this country. I for one see the government getting involved in a womans decision to get pregnant or not, or to cary a pregnancy through or not, as definitly not staying out of their lives. I see Reagans and Bushs increase in size of government as totaly in contrast to what the republican party promises.

If on day one McCain said that Bush was an ass who deviated from party principles, and he would lead us back to what the republican party has promised since it's inception, I would be right behind him. But instead he voted with Bush for way to much spending and a war that we didn't have to be in which is again driving up spending. The entire discussion of taxes is moot if we don't first stop growing government and spending. The last guy I saw cut spending and balance a budget was Clinton, and I'll be damed if the party that I have belonged to for my entire life is going to continue to promise one thing and do another without me showing my disatisfaction.

I am out of here for the weekend so peace brother and have a good weekend.
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Old 10-24-2008, 11:51 AM   #102
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Blow it out your piehole you commie so and so...J/K.
Up yours!!!!


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Old 10-24-2008, 12:02 PM   #103
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BINGO! I explained that to some folks the other night, I put it on paper for them and they were like WTF? I said, "Yeah, that little welfare check Obama sent you isn't going to do squat against inflated prices and unemployment". If you sit down and do your homework, there is no way you can let this guy in the whitehouse with a democratic congress.

It's not rich people who will be hurt, it is poor people. The middle class will continue on, same as always being the one taking the beating. The upper class will just hunker down and hold on for the next election cycle while the poor suffer the most.
100% Lots of good points here on this thread, only time will tell!

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Old 10-24-2008, 04:02 PM   #104
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seen this yet

http://technorati.com/posts/jwxXrSfP...kJoAqrbY8ck%3D

House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.
October 16, 2008
House Democrats Contemplate Abolishing 401(k) Tax Breaks
Powerful House Democrats are eyeing proposals to overhaul the nation’s $3 trillion 401(k) system, including the elimination of most of the $80 billion in annual tax breaks that 401(k) investors receive.

House Education and Labor Committee Chairman George Miller, D-California, and Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Washington, chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee’s Subcommittee on Income Security and Family Support, are looking at redirecting those tax breaks to a new system of guaranteed retirement accounts to which all workers would be obliged to contribute.

A plan by Teresa Ghilarducci, professor of economic-policy analysis at the New School for Social Research in New York, contains elements that are being considered. She testified last week before Miller’s Education and Labor Committee on her proposal.

At that hearing, the director of the Congressional Budget Office, Peter Orszag, testified that some $2 trillion in retirement savings has been lost over the past 15 months.

Under Ghilarducci’s plan, all workers would receive a $600 annual inflation-adjusted subsidy from the U.S. government but would be required to invest 5 percent of their pay into a guaranteed retirement account administered by the Social Security Administration. The money in turn would be invested in special government bonds that would pay 3 percent a year, adjusted for inflation.

The current system of providing tax breaks on 401(k) contributions and earnings would be eliminated.

“I want to stop the federal subsidy of 401(k)s,” Ghilarducci said in an interview. “401(k)s can continue to exist, but they won’t have the benefit of the subsidy of the tax break.”

Under the current 401(k) system, investors are charged relatively high retail fees, Ghilarducci said.

“I want to spend our nation’s dollar for retirement security better. Everybody would now be covered” if the plan were adopted, Ghilarducci said.

She has been in contact with Miller and McDermott about her plan, and they are interested in pursuing it, she said.

“This [plan] certainly is intriguing,” said Mike DeCesare, press secretary for McDermott.

“That is part of the discussion,” he said.

While Miller stopped short of calling for Ghilarducci’s plan at the hearing last week, he was clearly against continuing tax breaks as they currently exist.

Savings rate
“The savings rate isn’t going up for the investment of $80 billion,” he said. “We have to start to think about ... whether or not we want to continue to invest that $80 billion for a policy that’s not generating what we now say it should.”

“From where I sit that’s just crazy,” said John Belluardo, president of Stewardship Financial Services Inc. in Tarrytown, New York. “A lot of people contribute to their 401(k)s because of the match of the employer,” he said. Belluardo’s firm does not manage assets directly.

Higher-income employers provide matching funds to employee plans so that they can qualify for tax benefits for their own defined-contribution plans, he said.

“If the tax deferral goes away, the employers have no reason to do the matches, which primarily help people in the lower income brackets,” Belluardo said.

“This is a battle between liberalism and conservatism,” said Christopher Van Slyke, a partner in the La Jolla, California, advisory firm Trovena, which manages $400 million. “People are afraid because their accounts are seeing some volatility, so Democrats will seize on the opportunity to attack a program where investors control their own destiny,” he said.

The Profit Sharing/401(k) Council of America in Chicago, which represents employers that sponsor defined-contribution plans, is “staunchly committed to keeping the employee benefit system in America voluntary,” said Ed Ferrigno, vice president in the Washington office.

“Some of the tenor [of the hearing last week] that the entire system should be based on the activities of the markets in the last 90 days is not the way to judge the system,” he said.

No legislative proposals have been introduced and Congress is out of session until next year.

However, most political observers believe that Democrats are poised to gain seats in both the House and the Senate, so comments made by the mostly Democratic members who attended the hearing could be a harbinger of things to come.

Advice at issue
In addition to tax breaks for 401(k)s, the issue of allowing investment advisors to provide advice for 401(k) plans was also addressed at the hearing. Rep. Robert Andrews, D-New Jersey, was critical of Department of Labor proposals made in August that would allow advisors to give individual advice if the advice was generated using a computer model.

Andrews characterized the proposals as “loopholes” and said that investment advice should not be given by advisors who have a direct interest in the sale of financial products.

The Pension Protection Act of 2006 contains provisions making it easier for investment advisors to give individualized counseling to 401(k) holders.

“In retrospect that doesn’t seem like such a good idea to me,” Andrews said. “This is an issue I think we have to revisit. I frankly think that the compromise we struck in 2006 is not terribly workable or wise,” he said.

On Thursday, October 9, the Department of Labor hastily scheduled a public hearing on the issue in Washington for Tuesday, October 21.

The agency does not frequently hold public hearings on its proposals.

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grumpyvette is online now   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!
Old 10-24-2008, 04:45 PM   #105
blckslvr79
 
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Why save or invest????
You may never see tomorrow!

It's much better to share your wealth with those not so lucky.

Be patriotic!!!!
blckslvr79 is offline   Reply w/quote Quick reply to this message
I'm taking care of my procrastination issues, just you wait and see.
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