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BEIJING, April 10 (Xinhua) -- U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been causing huge civilian casualties with 63 percent of some 109,000 people killed in the Iraq war being civilians, according to a report on the U.S. human rights record released on Sunday.

The figures were quoted from a WikiLeaks trove by the Human Rights Record of the United States in 2010, which was released by the Information Office of China's State Council in response to the country reports on Human Rights Practices for 2010 issued by the U.S. Department of State.

Figures from the WikiLeaks website also revealed up to 285,000 war casualties in Iraq from March 2003 through the end of 2009, according to the report.

"The U.S. military actions in Afghanistan and other regions have also brought tremendous casualties to local people," said the report.

The report cited the notorious case on a "kill team" formed by five soldiers from the 5th Stryker Combat Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division of the U.S. forces in Afghanistan. The team had committed at least three murders, where they randomly targeted and killed Afghan civilians, and dismembered the corpses and hoarded the human bones.

In addition, the U.S.-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization troops had caused 535 Afghan civilian deaths and injuries in 2009. Among them 113 civilians were shot and killed, an increase of 43 percent over 2008, the report quoted McClatchy Newspapers as saying.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/10/c_13822309.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I think you forgot a fascist..

North Atlantic Treaty Organization troops had caused 535 Afghan civilian deaths and injuries in 2009. Among them 113 civilians were shot and killed

:cheers:
 

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BEIJING, April 10 (Xinhua) -- U.S.-led wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have been causing huge civilian casualties with 63 percent of some 109,000 people killed in the Iraq war being civilians, according to a report on the U.S. human rights record released on Sunday.

The figures were quoted from a WikiLeaks trove by the Human Rights Record of the United States in 2010, which was released by the Information Office of China's State Council in response to the country reports on Human Rights Practices for 2010 issued by the U.S. Department of State.

Figures from the WikiLeaks website also revealed up to 285,000 war casualties in Iraq from March 2003 through the end of 2009, according to the report.

"The U.S. military actions in Afghanistan and other regions have also brought tremendous casualties to local people," said the report.

The report cited the notorious case on a "kill team" formed by five soldiers from the 5th Stryker Combat Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division of the U.S. forces in Afghanistan. The team had committed at least three murders, where they randomly targeted and killed Afghan civilians, and dismembered the corpses and hoarded the human bones.

In addition, the U.S.-led North Atlantic Treaty Organization troops had caused 535 Afghan civilian deaths and injuries in 2009. Among them 113 civilians were shot and killed, an increase of 43 percent over 2008, the report quoted McClatchy Newspapers as saying.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-04/10/c_13822309.htm
that means that many less shoe bombers or air plane pilots we have to worry about.
 

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The numbers are not that straight forward. These wars are taking place in the middle of two civil wars. Think about Japan and Germany after WWII. How many were killed in battle after their defeat? None. The same could have been true in both Iraq and Afghanistan as the original enemy was either defeated or run out of the country very quickly. But fighting between groups continued causing thousands of deaths. Basically, our presence freed up people to start shooting at each other, and their continued shooting at us causes more civilians to be killed. There is plenty of blame to spread around for these deaths.
 

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What is an innocent civilian ? How do they differentiate between an insurgent actively engaged in combat and one sitting on the lines watching those engaged ?
 

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....and why are we quoting Xinhua Net articles pointing the Human Rights finger at the U.S.? The Chinese aren't killing foreigners. They don't have time because they are too busy killing their own citizens. :crazy:
 

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The numbers are not that straight forward. These wars are taking place in the middle of two civil wars. Think about Japan and Germany after WWII. How many were killed in battle after their defeat? None. The same could have been true in both Iraq and Afghanistan as the original enemy was either defeated or run out of the country very quickly. But fighting between groups continued causing thousands of deaths. Basically, our presence freed up people to start shooting at each other, and their continued shooting at us causes more civilians to be killed. There is plenty of blame to spread around for these deaths.
We fought these wars in the name of national security. We traded the possibility for several thousand US civilian casualties for ~5000 (I feel terrible that I no longer know the number of soldiers killed in action) military deaths and hundreds of thousands of Afgani and Iraqi deaths.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
We fought these wars in the name of national security.
Now, we are less wealthy, less secure, and more divided as a nation. Horrible trade if you ask me.. the wars don't even make the news anymore and we have started another one, which will be expanded by summer.. Rome, all over again.
 

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What none, and I mean NONE, of you understand, is that in Afghanistan there are no innocent civillians. They know who and where the bad guys are, they know when and where they will attack next. They, by not bringing that information to Coalition Forces or their own government, are just as guilty.

Even here in the US, if you know about crimes happening and do not report it, you too can be charged as an accessory after the fact.

Since none of you have been there, much less fought there, you do not realize that a lot of time these "civillian" deaths are only counted as civillian deaths after the insurgents have steralized the area. I have seen this happen with my own eyes, and thru pictures/video taken by air assets. While I was there (both times), there were numerous reports of the US bombing mosques. What they do not report is that the said US forces in question were taking fire from inside the mosque, thereby removing the mosque's status as a protected building.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
What none, and I mean NONE, of you understand, is that in Afghanistan there are no innocent civillians. They know who and where the bad guys are, they know when and where they will attack next. They, by not bringing that information to Coalition Forces or their own government, are just as guilty.
But, what we DO KNOW, is that during the 80's, when the Soviets brought their empire to Afghanistan to die, the US was there, training and arming Al Qeda. So, that does kind of explain why they are not very trusting of the US...
 

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What none, and I mean NONE, of you understand, is that in Afghanistan there are no innocent civillians. They know who and where the bad guys are, they know when and where they will attack next. They, by not bringing that information to Coalition Forces or their own government, are just as guilty.

Even here in the US, if you know about crimes happening and do not report it, you too can be charged as an accessory after the fact.

Since none of you have been there, much less fought there, you do not realize that a lot of time these "civillian" deaths are only counted as civillian deaths after the insurgents have steralized the area. I have seen this happen with my own eyes, and thru pictures/video taken by air assets. While I was there (both times), there were numerous reports of the US bombing mosques. What they do not report is that the said US forces in question were taking fire from inside the mosque, thereby removing the mosque's status as a protected building.
There is a huge difference between someone who wants to kill US civilians on US soil and a native defending their country.

If you hit a bee hive there are no more innocent bees, they are all fighting to defend their home. It was the act of hitting the bee hive that is to blame, not the malice of the bees.
 

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I don't even understand the issue. You guys are mostly talking about Afghanistan. While there is wild disagreement about the rationale for invading Iraq, almost everyone agrees the Afghanistan was the home base for the very people that destroyed the twin towers, and that they needed to be rooted out. The plan was to help a government less prone to terrorism get control of it's country so it would no longer be a threat. Best laid plans and all of that, we don't always get what we plan for. It's some mighty long distance hindsight that seems to have forgotten 3000 dead Americans who definitely WERE innocent.
 

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:laughing: I guess the issue is, winning hearts and minds is tough, when the hearts and minds you want to win are scattered all over the ground.
I don't disagree. We are fighting a very different war now than the one we started nearly 10 years ago. There seems to be no way to reach the goals we have without killing some civilians and creating more and more anger toward America. The problem is that leaving abruptly almost guarantees a Taliban/Al Qaeda takeover and buildup of Terrorism, Inc. The reason we are still there is the vain hope that the government can get to the point where they can enforce law on their own. At this point, it seems unlikely. I flat don't have a solution that I really think will work. Go or stay, we are screwed.
 

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I flat don't have a solution that I really think will work. Go or stay, we are screwed.
1: Leave.
2: Stay, keep wasting wealth and US lives, along with slaughtering thousands of civilians.

You can't make a decision? Daaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm.
 

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1: Leave.
2: Stay, keep wasting wealth and US lives, along with slaughtering thousands of civilians.

You can't make a decision? Daaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmm.
I can't say you are wrong. But the middle ground here is to concentrate effort on building and training that police/military force to keep the Taliban at bay. If that can be done over say another year or two, it is probably worth it. Because if we leave overnight.....we will pay a heavy price over the next decade or two.
 
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