[rayquayle]

Thought I'd share my tale of woe and ask for a bit more guidance. You'll note from my previous thread 86 cam and head advice that I started with cleaning my engine bay to an engine freshen up to a stroker rebuild using my '86 block. I really wanted to keep my Pace Car block original, but there really isn't a wealth of nice blocks to choose from here in England. I'd been turned on to a machine shop local to me that was said to be one of the best in England for American V8 race motors. I thought this would be my chance for that stroker I'd been lusting after for years. Tore down my motor, cleaned it up, ordered my forged stroker rotating assembly and retro-roller cam and lifters and thought I was ready to rock and roll. Packed everything up and brought it to the machine shop. Turns out the machinist is an expert in aftermarket race blocks, but is somewhat less familiar with OEM blocks. As I was concerned about going into a water jacket with my ham fisted use of my grinder, I wanted to have a pro do it. The machinist has a CNC program to clearance Dart blocks for 4.00" strokes, but has never done an OEM block. This added to the fact that zero decking my block would wipe the original numbers, led me to rethink the block issue. In a perfect world I'd have cleaned up my original Pace Car motor and wrapped it in plastic on a stand in a corner of my garage and built a 4 bolt, one piece rear main roller block 383. Since I figured my chances of finding a good core here were about the same as winning the lottery, I thought I'd build my block. I've now given up on building my block and will get it back from the machinist with a nice align hone done and I'll put it back together with the stock parts, new gaskets, seals, bearings rings to save for the day I return to the US and go NCRS. For now I decided on the 383 block from Summit. I got a few responses about this block and none were negative, so I ordered the block and will pay almost as much to ship as for the block itself, but I should finally have a good starting point.

Now my questions; I paid a chunk of change for these Crane 11532 Retro Roller Lifters. Are these going to be unusable on the roller block? Since I'll now be able to use a cam retainer without having to do any machining, should I dump the retro roller cam and go with a standard roller cam to do away with the need for Torrington and button. Of course this will require a new timing set too, but is it worth it. What are your thoughts? Those that are still awake!:laughing:

 

[-=Jeff=-]

Go with the oem type roller parts and sell the retro fit parts.

That is what I would do, this way everything you know will work out as it is meant to and you are not chasing around trying to 'make stuff work'

my 2 pence :thumbsup:

 

[rayquayle]

Go with the oem type roller parts and sell the retro fit parts.

That is what I would do, this way everything you know will work out as it is meant to and you are not chasing around trying to 'make stuff work'

my 2 pence :thumbsup:

Thanks for the input, Jeff. That is the way I'm leaning.

 

[vetteoz]

Now my questions; I paid a chunk of change for these Crane 11532 Retro Roller Lifters. Are these going to be unusable on the roller block?

You could but you wouldn't

should I dump the retro roller cam and go with a standard roller cam

:agree:
GM LS7 lifters $130 set ( good to 7k)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499225/

Cheaper if you shop around

Better choice of cams , anything from a LT1 fits , just cut the drive pin down

There are always new / lightly used factory style roller cams ( from mild - full race ) around the forums at good prices

 

[rayquayle]

You could but you wouldn't



:agree:
GM LS7 lifters $130 set ( good to 7k)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-12499225/

Cheaper if you shop around

Better choice of cams , anything from a LT1 fits , just cut the drive pin down

There are always new / lightly used factory style roller cams ( from mild - full race ) around the forums at good prices

Thanks Oz, Sounds like the way to go.

 

[grumpyvette]

you really need to talk with the tech guys at crane before making any changes, some OEM roller lifters and cams are INFERIOR quality and HEAVIER than the CRANE aftermarket components, the OEM roller lifters that use the dog bone and spider retainer system tend to limit your rpms and choice of cam lift and duration more than the aftermarket components designed for higher rpms and lift, no OEM component hydraulic roller lifter valve train is likely to work well much pastv 5800rpm-6000rpm, but the better aftermarket designs can add several hundered rpm to the power band with the correct valve springs and components being used

READ THRU THE LINKED INFO
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=347#p347

these hydraulic roller lifters rarely work well past 5800rpm-6000rpm MOST GUYS WHO INSIST THEY DO, don,t realize that the lifters are not maintaining firm contact with the cam lobes,or the shock loads on the valve train cause problems,which they may not see until they have component failure problems and depending on wildly varying components and rpm levels and frequency of use those components may last for years or only days under such abuse

this type will frequently add 200-300rpm to the valve trains max rpm stability

swapping to SOLID ROLLER LIFTERS , can frequently add over a 1000 rpm more with the correct cam lobe and stiffer valve train springs and components

 

[rayquayle]

you really need to talk with the tech guys at crane before making any changes, some OEM roller lifters and cams are INFERIOR quality and HEAVIER than the CRANE aftermarket components, the OEM roller lifters that use the dog bone and spider retainer system tend to limit your rpms and choice of cam lift and duration more than the aftermarket components designed for higher rpms and lift, no OEM component hydraulic roller lifter valve train is likely to work well much pastv 5800rpm-6000rpm, but the better aftermarket designs can add several hundered rpm to the power band with the correct valve springs and components being used

Thanks again for your input, Grumpy. Crane recommends the retro lifters that I have (11532) for use in factory roller blocks that use small base circle or higher than stock lift cams. So I may be able to get away with using these lifters. Way back when I started this journey my plan was never to exceed 6K with 5K-5500 most likely max rpm and that's one thing that hasn't changed. With a 383, 6 inch rod, SRP Pro 268830 flat tops, AFR 180 65cc, Erson 1.6 RR - how do you think a Crane 109671 would work?

 

[grumpyvette]

I think youll be better off using the crane components you have rather than the OEM stock lifters and spider retainer system, lets put it this way, if it was my engine, theres no WAY I.D GO THE OEM lifter and spider route, simply because the crane design has proven to be more durable once you start talking about higher lifts and rpm levels, remember the stock components were designed to be match a transmission that shifts at under 5500rpm in most applications

 

[rayquayle]

I think youll be better off using the crane components you have rather than the OEM stock lifters and spider retainer system, lets put it this way, if it was my engine, theres no WAY I.D GO THE OEM lifter and spider route, simply because the crane design has proven to be more durable once you start talking about higher lifts and rpm levels, remember the stock components were designed to be match a transmission that shifts at under 5500rpm in most applications

I'm with you. Any thoughts on the Crane 109671 with my gear.

 

[grumpyvette]

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=24204

because youve got a manual transmission that cam will be fine, thats a fairly mild cam but it will provide a quite noticeable boost in power over the OEM cam,that was in that vette,obviously having a rear gear ratio like a 3.36:1-3.73:1 will be the best choice to match the power curve, but nearly anything in a corvette and a 350-406 sbc with a manual transmission and the other components youve listed in previous posts will function fairly well if you compensate with changes to driving style , (an option that the auto trans would be more difficult to manage without a higher than stock stall converter speed)

 

[rayquayle]

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=24204

because youve got a manual transmission that cam will be fine, thats a fairly mild cam but it will provide a quite noticeable boost in power over the OEM cam,that was in that vette,obviously having a rear gear ratio like a 3.36:1-3.73:1 will be the best choice to match the power curve, but nearly anything in a corvette and a 350-406 sbc with a manual transmission and the other components youve listed in previous posts will function fairly well if you compensate with changes to driving style , (an option that the auto trans would be more difficult to manage without a higher than stock stall converter speed)

Thanks a lot, Grump.:thumbsup:

 

[remauto1100]

Its too bad you aren't in the U.S. SBC's are like camaros and a$$ holes.....everybody's got one! :rolling:

Seriously I could have you a original TPI engine for your car (used) or a rebuildable core sitting in your drive in a matter of days!
Heck i am getting ready to yank the TPI 350 out of my 85 so i can drop in a LSX that i am in the process of getting ready for a trip to the machine shop.

Now if i could just settle on what cam i want in there. Really wish i had more experience in the cam field! I've got everything figured out but the cam.

Its pretty sad... I can fix a radar system used for U.S. air traffic control but just dont know enough about how cams respond to different engine setups to make a educated decision.
I really dont like to have to call a supplier to have them basically tell me how their product will work for me. Its like asking a drug dealer to help you get of the drugs.

 

[rayquayle]

Its too bad you aren't in the U.S. SBC's are like camaros and a$$ holes.....everybody's got one! :rolling:

Seriously I could have you a original TPI engine for your car (used) or a rebuildable core sitting in your drive in a matter of days!
Heck i am getting ready to yank the TPI 350 out of my 85 so i can drop in a LSX that i am in the process of getting ready for a trip to the machine shop.

Now if i could just settle on what cam i want in there. Really wish i had more experience in the cam field! I've got everything figured out but the cam.

Its pretty sad... I can fix a radar system used for U.S. air traffic control but just dont know enough about how cams respond to different engine setups to make a educated decision.
I really dont like to have to call a supplier to have them basically tell me how their product will work for me. Its like asking a drug dealer to help you get of the drugs.

I hear ya! I often wish I was back in the US. I've been here over 21 years, you'd think I'd be used to it by now. No matter, my block has been shipped by Summit and should be with me next week. The machine shop here managed to balance my rotating assembly for me, so it's ready to go. Just a minor setback is all. I got the nod from Grumpy on the cam, so I've ordered it and I'll be able to use the Crane retro-roller lifters I already have. I've just got an abundance of unused cams now (3 - 2 flat tappet and 1 retro-roller). It looks like I need to set up a seller account on one of those auction sites.

 

[rayquayle]

Hey all, still plugging away with my '86 L98 rebuild that's turned into a new stroker on a Summit 150100 block. As you may recall in 383 Bare Block from Summit? I showed pictures of the rusty block and how it cleaned up. I also mentioned that Summit stood up and gave me $300 worth of gift certificates for my troubles, making things right in my opinion. I've now gotten this Summit block to the point I was with the original L98 block after smoothing the lifter valley and timing chain area.

I've installed ARP main studs.

I also got the chance to do a bit of pre-assembly and checked out the Crane 109671 roller cam. I zeroed the dial indicator at .100" and checked #1 lft numbers. Intake measured right at .339" for .542" with my 1.6 roller rockers:

Exhaust was also right on the money at .352", that's .563 with the 1.6 RRs:

Quite mild, but should work with my modified TPI.

So things are looking up. I've touched up the notches where pre-assembly showed that one rod bolt was touching and a couple were less than .040", bringing all clearances out to > .060". This Crane 109671 is small base circle .900" so plenty of clearance with these Scat 6" H-beam rods. I'm even going to be able to use the Crane 11532 lifters I bought when I was doing the retro thing.

I'm going to get some paint on it and then get it to the machine shop as soon as I can to get it align honed for the new main studs and have them check the deck height and see how the squareness looks.

 

[blkvette94]

I'd hold off on the paint until the last thing. it could get messed up in some of the milling fixtures

 

[rayquayle]

I'd hold off on the paint until the last thing. it could get messed up in some of the milling fixtures

Yea, good point.:thumbsup:

 

[rayquayle]

Finished pre-assembly of the rotating assembly and installed the Crane 109671 cam. Got out my degree wheel and found something strange that maybe you guys can give me some idea of what you think. I installed the cam straight up, calibrated the wheel at #1 TDC and found this at .050" Intake Opening:

The cam card said it should be 1° BTDC and I got 4° BTDC. No problem I thought straight up was advanced 3°. I got up to max lift and it was spot on at .339" @ 107° ATDC, exactly what the cam card said it should be. Continued on to .050" Intake Closing and got 36° ABDC. The cam card showed 35° ABDC. I was expecting about 32 or 33° ABDC if it was actually 3° advanced. My numbers come out to 220° Intake duration @ .050", but the cam card lists 216°. I went on to check the Exhaust and got 52° BBDC instead of 49° on opening, max lift was right on .352" @ 117 (again matching the cam card in this respect) and on closing I got 5° BTDC which actually matched the cam card. This works out at 227° duration @ .050" instead of 224° listed on the cam card. I went as far as checking all the other lobes and got the same results. Thought I may have gotten the wrong cam even though the box was labeled right and I did look before I installed it. I checked again and the cam had this etched in:

This matches the grind number for the 109671. It also had this etched in:

Thought this would be the part number, but it sure doesn't look like 109671. I couldn't find a Crane part number beginning with 1014.

Could it be because I was using a Comp Cams degree wheel on a Crane cam!:laughing: Seriously, should I just accept this as being close enough? In the past, I've only seen 1 or 2° difference from the card and thought this within the margin for error on a 9" degree wheel. What do the experts think?

One last question. Since the late 90’s, all Crane camshafts for roller blocks have been machined for the front ignition drive and include the long cam dowel pin that’s also needed. If you don't need the long dowel pin, Crane suggest you drive the pin in further to the proper length. Can I just whack the pin with a brass hammer as it sits installed or is there some other recommended way to secure the cam for driving in the pin?

Thanks for all you help.

 

[grumpyvette]

you can drive the cam pin deeper with a brass hammer very easily, the cam specs are off (surprising most crane cams are much closer) but in this case, and in your application, the amounts not likely to cause any problems, if your concerned call the crane tech guys they may just send you a new cam if you send that one back for inspection, at least the older crane guys used too, in some cases.

 

[Kubs]

Not to get off topic, but what if you didnt drive the pin in anymore?

 

[rayquayle]

Not to get off topic, but what if you didnt drive the pin in anymore?

It's hitting the timing cover.