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Ethanol, the alternative fuel made from corn, may be a victim of its own success. Or rather, motorists who buy ethanol may be the victims.

For the first time since the push to use more ethanol in American vehicles began five or six years ago, ethanol costs more than gasoline. E-85, a blend of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline, has recently been priced higher than regular gasoline at some area stations.

"It's not going to last," said Wallace Tyner, a professor in the Department of Agricultural Economics at Purdue University.

The reason it won't last is that E-85 is a bad deal for motorists when it costs as much as gasoline. Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gasoline. A gallon of ethanol normally will propel a vehicle fewer miles than a gallon of gasoline.

All of us buy some ethanol these days, because gasoline contains about 10 percent ethanol. But E-85 compared with gasoline -- E-10, as Tyner calls it -- has only about 78 percent of the energy of regular gas.

Road tests verify that E-85 yields much lower mileage. In 2006, Consumer Reports tested a Chevy Tahoe running on regular gasoline and on E-85; it found the mileage for E-85 to be 22 percent to 29 percent lower in various types of driving. The same year, Car and Driver magazine ran mileage tests on a Chevy Tahoe at various speeds. The E-85 mileage was 29 percent to 32 percent less than regular gas in those tests, although acceleration was slightly faster in some tests with E-85. A significant benefit of E-85 is that it produces cleaner emissions than ordinary gasoline.

Why does E-85 cost so much, compared with gasoline?

"Corn is the driver," Tyner said. Its cost is by far the largest cost involved in producing ethanol, he said.

Corn prices have risen more than 50 percent in the last few months; corn now costs $5 to $6 a bushel. And it takes a lot of corn to make ethanol -- about a bushel per 2.8 gallons.

(Not mentioning what it has done to food prices... increasing by almost as much)

When corn gets costly, it doesn't mean markets will naturally back off ethanol. The production of ethanol is encouraged by tax credits -- 45 cents per gallon at the federal level -- and protected by tariffs on foreign ethanol, which carries a 54-cents-per-gallon charge.

As if that weren't enough to guard ethanol production, the federal government mandates that 12.5 billion gallons of ethanol be blended into the fuel supply in 2011, increasing to 15 billion gallons in 2015. That's why gasoline is now 10 percent ethanol, Tyner said.

The rise in E-85 prices doesn't pose a desperate problem for motorists -- or for corn-growing farmers, for that matter. Tyner said only a tiny part -- less than 2 percent -- of ethanol sold in the U.S. is contained in E-85; the rest is blended into E-10 gasoline.

But decisions from Washington, D.C., could change the economics of the business considerably. Those tariffs and federal tax credits are set to expire at the end of December. And though there isn't much more production that the market for gasoline can absorb, the Environmental Protection Agency is studying whether to increase the amount of ethanol that can be blended into ordinary gasoline.

If the EPA decides gasoline can contain 15 percent ethanol instead of 10 percent, it would open the door to politicians or the EPA to raise the mandatory production of the fuel.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...over-ethanol-20101230_1_e-85-ethanol-gasoline
 

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Well, We still need to offer it at All gas stations

To give the Green Weenies something to run,

Also it will Appear that California is Leading the Way in Green Technologie's

E85 will give us good little escape route when it comes time to pay back some of that federal bail out money,

We can just give the Feds the finger and write it all off as some "Green Cause"

We call it the "Save the World Campaign" and get all the women to Ralley around it :nuts:

Then we can Ask for more money from the federal Gov
 

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Corn got expensive because profiteers and investors ran into the market with greed and inflated the costs of everything involved with it's process.
 

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I have to ask, brother... do you just have a board on the wall with canned answers -all from an anti-capitalist website... that you throw darts at and post the answer that the dart indicates ?

All you were required to do... was read the article.

But decisions from Washington, D.C., could change the economics of the business considerably. Those tariffs and federal tax credits are set to expire at the end of December. And though there isn't much more production that the market for gasoline can absorb, the Environmental Protection Agency is studying whether to increase the amount of ethanol that can be blended into ordinary gasoline.

If the EPA decides gasoline can contain 15 percent ethanol instead of 10 percent, it would open the door to politicians or the EPA to raise the mandatory production of the fuel.
The price increase and fluctuation is the due to the mandate and regulation of supply and demand... by the government.

X number of bushels are available from X number of acres for all corn based feed and production.

Government mandates that 40% of X bushels and X acres must be used for fuel.

40% less corn is available for non fuel and production... price of all corn based feed and products rise due to the same demand for less product.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Fuel Vs. Food: Ethanol Helps Boost Meat Prices

December 22, 2010 from WOI

The U.S. corn crop is enormous. But about a third of it doesn't go to cereal or cows — instead, it helps run your car. To boost our use of renewable fuels, the federal government subsidizes corn-based ethanol.

This has the meat and dairy industries up in arms over the high cost of their main feed. The rise of ethanol has pitted livestock producers against the oil industry.

In part 2 of our ethanol series, Harvest Public Media's Kathleen Masterson reports on what supporting ethanol means for the food we eat.

Food Costs In The Kitchen

In the big kitchen at the Green Hills Retirement Community in Ames, Iowa, workers scurry about. Chef Chris Stelzer directs platters into the dining hall and expertly flips pancakes while a huge, noisy vent wicks up warm, bacon-scented air.

Stelzer likes to cook the seniors things that remind them of home — meat and potatoes, angus beef, pork loin. It's with these foods that he's seen the most drastic rise in prices.

"The prices of beef and pork have definitely gone up the last few months," Stelzer says. "Tenderloin's gone up about two dollars in the past month or two — a pound — and pork's gone up about a dollar or so."

He says that while meat prices always go up in the holiday season, this year the increase started earlier and went higher.

And according to USDA data, meat now costs as much as 12 percent more than last year.

Corn Prices Rise In Ethanol Era

But let's get out of the kitchen for a minute — this is a story about corn. Because when you're eating meat, you're indirectly eating lots of corn. Far more corn goes into the meat you're eating than into a box of cornflakes.

When it comes to raising meat, eggs and dairy, feed is the biggest cost. And, most likely, that feed is corn.

For years, the livestock industry was the main buyer of cheap and plentiful corn. Then came the ethanol mandate in 2005. Ultimately, the government required that Americans use about 13 billion gallons of ethanol in 2010. And the way we make ethanol here? Yep, you know this one: corn.

To further boost using corn to fuel your car, Congress created subsidies paying gasoline blenders for every gallon they blend with ethanol.

Not surprisingly, since the ethanol mandate was enacted five years ago, the ethanol industry's corn consumption has tripled. Our cars now burn up a third of the nation's corn crop.

"I don't see why we can really justify subsidies, when all that does is raises cost of producing food," says economics professor Bruce Babcock, of Iowa State University.

Ethanol policies increase the cost of food at least 1.5 percent, Babcock says. And the impact on meat prices is significantly greater.

It's economics 101, he says. Ethanol plants increase the demand for corn, driving up the prices for other buyers — like livestock producers. International demand is up, too – and we're exporting more ethanol than ever before. Many grain farmers are seeing record incomes this year.

Meat Industry Stews Over Subsidies

The American Meat Institute's J. Patrick Boyle says the current system is unfair, because the ethanol industry is benefiting from a trifecta of government subsidies.

In the case of ethanol, he says, "the government mandates the consumption of your product, subsidizes its production, and then insulates the product from international competition."

It's time for the ethanol industry to stand on its own two feet, Boyle says.

"That tax credit today is costing the American taxpayer about $5 billion this year — we think that is way too much money to begin with, and we think it's gone on way too long, as well."

But guess who disagrees with that idea? The Renewable Fuels Association, which says the meat industry just wants to return to the days when the subsidies helped them.

RFA spokesman Matt Hartwig argues that for years before the ethanol mandate, corn prices were artificially low.

"Look, in the past, the government has paid farmers when the price of corn fell below a certain point — we were doing that for decades, to the tune of several billion dollars a year," he says. "The corporate livestock industry, the junk food industry — they all loved that; they could buy corn for less than it cost the farmer to produce."

Price Of Corn Linked To Both Meat, And Oil

Ethanol demand has helped send corn prices soaring.

And economist Babcock says the mere fact that ethanol comprises about 8 percent of fuel consumed in the United States has already changed the ebb and flow of the commodity market behind food.

"We've now hitched the price of corn, inextricably linked the price of corn, to the price of crude oil, and I think we can't turn the clock back, that's the way it is."

With corn prices more closely tied to oil prices, when the price of gas goes up, it raises the demand for ethanol — and that means consumers will feel it in two places: at the gas pump and on the dinner table.
 

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Ethanol Gets A Boost; Will It Return The Favor?

The recent tax cut bill preserves a pretty sweet deal for corn ethanol. It extends a tax subsidy, along with an import tariff supporting a fuel that already enjoys a guaranteed market. But what do taxpayers get for all the help?

In the first of our three-part series on ethanol, Frank Morris of Harvest Public Media reports that the heated debate over ethanol tramples some basic realities.

Ethanol may seem modern, but people throughout Appalachia have been making it for hundreds of years.

"We are known for our moonshine industry," says science writer Bill Kovarik with a laugh, "very well known for our moonshine industry. It is still flourishing."

Kovarik, who's also a professor at Radford University, says that ethanol is, first and foremost, a way to make corn more valuable. More than a century ago, Henry Ford built cars to run on it, with just that in mind.

"So, you could replace the transportation income that farmers used to have by [their] growing the fuel for the cars, instead of growing horses and feed."

Prohibition killed that idea, but the farm crisis, oil shocks and environmental concerns have revived it. Lawmakers gave companies a tax credit — currently 45 cents a gallon, more than $5 billion a year — for blending ethanol with gasoline.

The EPA forces fuel blenders to use billions of gallons of ethanol a year. And there's also a high tariff on imports — giving ethanol triple support. But according to the ethanol industry ads, the payback is huge.

One spot claims that ethanol is responsible for "12 billion gallons of clean, renewable American energy a year, fueling the economy, and nearly 400,000 jobs."

But, says David Swenson of Iowa State University: "Nationwide, the number of ethanol jobs isn't as many as people would think it was. It's probably in the territory of 30,000 to 35,000."

Swenson doesn't count farm jobs in his equation. But he does say that ethanol spreads money across the Midwest — and even all the way back to Washington, D.C., in a way.

Ethanol uses a lot of corn, which makes it, and other row crops, more valuable.

These days, grain never gets cheap enough to trigger federal price support payments to farmers — something that used to happen frequently. But "Federal support for ethanol effectively replaces other farm subsidies" doesn't really make a great slogan.

Instead, the industry's ad uses this motto: "Turning everyday, abundant, renewable ingredients into clean, sustainable energy."

Farmers now grow a lot more corn, but ethanol's voracious appetite keeps supply tight and prices high. Ethanol does burn much cleaner than gasoline — creating no soot — but producing it creates pollution and sucks up lots of water, which muddies the environmental benefit.

Of course, ethanol boosters aren't the only ones talking in this debate.

"We're importing oil to produce this ethanol," says David Pimentel, a professor at Cornell University.

Pimentel added up all the energy used in growing corn — the fertilizer, the tractor fuel and tractor manufacturing, everything — plus the energy used by ethanol plants. He says that making 1 gallon of ethanol uses the equivalent of about 1-1/3 gallons of oil.

Since his first study came out 30 years ago, Pimentel says, his findings haven't changed.

"There's been no net gain, as far as making the U.S. oil-independent," he says.

Pimentel's analysis of corn ethanol as an energy black hole has been widely cited by the diverse coalition lined up against corn ethanol, spanning everyone from liberal environmentalists to Fox News pundit Glenn Beck.

Beck has said: "Not only is corn ethanol wildly inefficient — I mean, it takes more energy to produce it than it ends up providing. Hello?"

But Pimentel uses what many researchers believe are outdated or worst-case scenarios for growing corn and producing ethanol. Factoring in dramatic technical advances in both fields, most researchers figure that corn ethanol now delivers an energy gain — of about 40 percent.

"But that's not really good enough," says Kovarik. "What we need is something in the neighborhood of 12 to 1, not, you know, 1 to 1.4."

Kovarik says that larger gains will come only after solving wickedly complex scientific, logistic and financial problems, allowing us to make ethanol from grass, trees or something other than corn.

"The corn ethanol industry is not really a long-term solution to oil dependence," Kovarik says. "It's just an octane booster."

And that's because ethanol is safer than banned gasoline additives, like lead, benzene and MTBE.

So, corn ethanol does create domestic energy and jobs — but not as much, or as many, as backers hoped. It has helped some farmers get off other subsidies, and improved the rural economy.

The question is: Does it deserve a multibillion-dollar tax credit, on top of a tariff, on top of a huge and growing mandate to use it?

http://www.npr.org/2010/12/21/132082560/ethanol-gets-a-boost-will-it-return-the-favor
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Drinking it!!! I'm fooking making it...
 

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Ethanol is a stupid idea.. green this, green that, all brown, as in bullshit.

Alot guys are running some pretty quick times on Ethanol
at the race track

To say Oil is the pinnacle of all energy, and we will never advance beyond it, Shows lack of foresight on your part,

It shows me that you have a blind eye to any new Idea's or any kind of Change at all ,

The fact is we need to provide it for those who wish to run it in their cars,

Yes, I'm a man of choice, Even if it isn't my Choice
 

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Alot guys are running some pretty quick times on Ethanol
at the race track

To say Oil is the pinnacle of all energy, and we will never advance beyond it, Shows lack of foresight on your part,

It shows me that you have a blind eye to any new Idea's or any kind of Change,

The fact is we need to provide it for those who wish to run it in their cars,

Yes, I'm a man of choice, Even if it isn't my Choice
Freedom of choice is fine, using my tax dollars chasing unicorns, isn't.
 

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"X" got expensive because profiteers and investors ran into the market with greed and inflated the costs of everything involved with it's process.
Now you don't have to post this anymore.

Now it covers everything:thumbsup:
 

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Alot guys are running some pretty quick times on Ethanol
at the race track

To say Oil is the pinnacle of all energy, and we will never advance beyond it, Shows lack of foresight on your part,

It shows me that you have a blind eye to any new Idea's or any kind of Change at all ,

The fact is we need to provide it for those who wish to run it in their cars,

Yes, I'm a man of choice, Even if it isn't my Choice
Let me rephrase for Vette_Newb

CORN Ethonol is a stupid idea. Ethonol is alcohol plain and simple and ehtonol is derived from the sugar content of the starting process. Corn is high in starch not sugar so that means is must be malted to get sugar, same process as in the making of beer(actually to make ethonol you make beer first). Now sugar beets or sugar cane for Ethonol would be far more efficient per acre than corn.

Still ethonol does contain far less energy per cgallon than gasoline so no matter where the ethonol comes from mileage will suffer in comparison.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
What was that middle thing ? :laughing:
 

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Let me rephrase for Vette_Newb

CORN Ethonol is a stupid idea. Ethonol is alcohol plain and simple and ehtonol is derived from the sugar content of the starting process. Corn is high in starch not sugar so that means is must be malted to get sugar, same process as in the making of beer(actually to make ethonol you make beer first). Now sugar beets or sugar cane for Ethonol would be far more efficient per acre than corn.

Still ethonol does contain far less energy per cgallon than gasoline so no matter where the ethonol comes from mileage will suffer in comparison.

Nobody said anything about corn

Corn is used to make Corn syrup

Yeah Ethonol can be made out of many things

some people that run hybreds and may wish to run it,

Also People use it as an octane booster, Some even run straight Ethonol

It needs to be developed further in order to make it more Economically feasible,

I don't think that will happen for a while thoe,

Even if it did the Oil industry would try to Derail it,

Also the speculators on Wall Street will inflate the price beyond oil,

In Short, America is not really looking to Go Green,

They just want to Downsize my Lifestyle to that of the Europeans,
 

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NOt only is ethanol a stupid idea as far as it's practicalities, it sucks as a fuel when it comes to making power. In Florida it's been mandated that all fuel has to be at least 10% ethanol...

I'm running 630hp at the crank, that translates into ~30hp less with a 10% ethanol mix. If they up it to 15% thAT'S ANOTHER 10HP.

Ethanol is also hygroscopic and will dry out fuel line seals and gaskets if not designed to run with them. I think silicone seals will work. That means older cars...somas recent as 2003 will start to have seal issues withe the fuel lines.

As far as ethanol being higher octane than gas, yes it is, but octane is octane....89 octane pure gas is the same octane as 89 octane E10. In order to take advantage of ethanol's octane boostr you'd have to add it to pure gas, but then you'd have less energy producing fuel per unit. The higher octane can allow for increased compression and more timing, but only if the octane is increased.

It's a waste.

TRhere is a gas station locally that hass one pump that pumps 93 octane pure. There are also a lot of guys that tow boats around here. Where do you think they line up for gas? That's where I go to fill up now too, and the difference is quit remarkable. They also claim to get much better milage. I'm not that concerned with milage, but that benefit does exist.

Ethanol is just a ruse to subsidize the big farms and make the greenies feel better. However, there are a lot of greenie groups now lobbying against ethanol for the reasons given above. Also, since it's less efficient at producing energy when burned, you have to burn more fuel to go the same distance...so you sell more gas...plays right into big oil's hands, and a primary reason the greenies are backtracking on the ethanol bandwagon. It's funny to see the idiots being done in by the very substance they lobbyed for.
 
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