Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 71 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
2006-2010 C6 z06 Valve Issue

See the attachment! This is why you shouldn't trust GM or any other dealerships. I had a complete stock car and the motor blows up and GM wouldn't take responsibility. You will need adobe reader to view the document.

If you have had issues with your valves, please respond. View attachment GM Story.pdf

Added more pictures. Sorry for this being so long, I tried to remember everything that happened since the day of the incident. I bet Lamborhini owners dont have these issues..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
My Story - Pictures are in the attachments

Back in April of 2010 I was finally able to buy the car of my dreams (or so I thought). I bought a c6 z06 Corvette with 25,000 miles on it and it had been previously owned, but it was certified by GM (Bill Jacobs Chevrolet). The car was in mint condition….until NOW! On September 2nd 2010 I thought I would take a cruise and go play racquetball, but my plans were soon altered. My car made a loud banging sound and stalled out five minutes after leaving my house. I then proceeded to call a wrecker to have my car towed to the nearest open dealership which happened to be Munday Chevrolet. At first they were very nice and courteous on the phone and said they would take a look at my car right away. I explained to Louis Anzaldua that my car would not start and was leaking fluids. He stated that they would look at it and he would see if they could cover my car under warranty since it had less than 36,000 miles. Two days went by and I had not heard anything from Munday Chevrolet, so I figured I would call them and get an update. Louis stated that the motor was blown and that they will NOT be able to cover the car under warranty because it had “after-market” valves and “after-market” programming done to the PCM.
September 4th 2010 –
When I found out the news I was shocked because I knew both were NOT true. The car was certified from GM and the previous owner told me that he had NOT done any modifications to the car. At this point I felt like the dealership was lying to me and they just didn’t want to own up to the cost of a new z06 engine which is around $15,600 plus labor. After finding out that Munday Chevrolet was not going to be able to claim my car under warranty and said my car had after-market parts I decided to do some research on my own. It just so happened that when my engine blew up the president of the Sam Houston Corvette Club saw that I was stranded on the side of the road and offered help. After talking to Sid for about 30 minutes, I asked him if he knew of anyone that specialized in just corvettes and he told me about Frank’s Vettes and he also said they have a very good reputation. (A lot of people from the clubs use him too) I thought this was very interesting because Munday Chevrolet is one of the sponsors for the Sam Houston Corvette Club, but yet the president of the club recommended that I take my car somewhere else. Later that day I called a wrecker service and decided to have my car towed to Frank’s Vettes, but found out that the wrecker was not able to pick up my car because Louis Anzaldua would not release my car to the wrecker company. I then called Louis and asked him what the problem was and why would he not release my car to the towing company? (This is when things got UGLY). Louis asked why I was having the car towed and insisted that I leave the car at the dealership for them to fix. I told Louis since you and Munday Chevrolet lied to me about my car and are not covering it under warranty I would like a highly reputable corvette specialist to fix my car instead. Finally at the end of the day my car was towed over to Frank’s Vettes.
September 6th 2010 –
After finding out that my motor was blown and it had to be replaced a friend and I decided to go take a look at my blown motor at Frank’s Vettes and we got to see the supposedly “after-market” valves. I spoke to Frank Coleman, who is the owner Frank’s Vettes and he said “GM lied to you, they didn’t want to cover this under warranty the moment they saw it because it is an expensive bill. The valves on your car ARE stock valves and I can prove it to you. Each valve has a GM part number on it that is uniquely identified with your Vehicle Identification Number.” (Now I am really starting to get angry at GM). Frank also said they probably told you that your PCM had “after-market” programming because that information is proprietary to GM engineers only. I asked Frank if there was a way to prove that my PCM had been programmed or not and he stated that we could print the calibration codes from my z06 and a few other z06’s to see if they match. So we did just that! I decided before I have a new motor installed in my car that it might be a good idea to document everything and take LOTS of pictures! (Don’t worry you will get to see all of them...the calibration codes, the blown motor, and the valves with a GM part number on them)
September 8th 2010 – Time to call GM’s corporate headquarters and open a case
After a long weekend of distress I wanted answers! Why did Munday Chevrolet tell me that my valves and PCM were “after-market?” Why would they say this is my car was a certified GM car? How did they NOT notice the “GMP-12591644” part number that was on each valve? Are these service mechanics not professionals? The part numbers for every part in my car can be associated with my Vehicle Identification Number! After gathering all of the evidence and details on my car I decided it was time to call the corporate headquarters and find out why my warranty was really denied. I called and spoke to a “District Specialist” named Jessica and told her about my C6 Corvette Z06, gave her my Vehicle Identification Number and asked if there was a case opened by Munday Chevrolet? She said, “Mr. George, there doesn’t seem to be any cases open related to the VIN you provided or your name, would you like to open one?” (Now I am really angry at Munday Chevrolet they never even opened a warranty case!!) I ended telling Jessica my whole story about what happened to my car and that it just barely reached 30,000 miles and now I have to replace the motor that costs a lot of money. Jessica was very nice and said that she would open a case for me. The case # is 71-868278908. Her phone number is 1-866-790-5600 ext. 31466. I then told Jessica why Munday Chevrolet “denied my warranty” claim and that I could prove that they were lying to me. Jessica asked if it would be possible for me to fax or mail any documentation that I had to her, so I did. A few days later after she received the documentation Jessica verified that my valves were stock with “their internal engineers.” GM then decided to pursue the issue about my PCM being “after-market.” At this time, I am thinking now GM just wants to deny my claim, but sure…I’ll prove them wrong on this too, but this one is going to be harder because the codes are “internal” to GM. So this is the tricky part…How do I prove that my calibration codes are stock and if they are stock how can I tell? Well since Munday Chevrolet lied about my valves not being stock, I assumed that they lied about my PCM not being stock too because they just flat out did not want to pay for a new motor and the labor involved with it. (Unless it came out of my pocket) Jessica stated that she will submit all of the documentation to a supervisor and have the Houston district manager Manny Sosa take a look at my file. I told her that I wanted to have my PCM codes re-submitted to GM because I feel like Munday Chevrolet falsified information.


The week of September 12th 2010 – Visit with Frank Coleman at Frank’s Vettes
I decided to go talk to my trustworthy mechanic, Frank Coleman at Frank’s Vettes to get answers and to check the progress on how things were going with my car. The new motor was ordered from http://www.gmperformanceparts.com/ and its was cost $15,600. Frank stated that it would have a 3-year/100k mile warranty, but what good is a warranty if GM just backs out of them anyways? At this time Frank is very aware of my story and is not surprised that GM is mistreating me. I told Frank about the conversation that I had with Jessica at the corporate headquarters and I asked Frank if it were possible to have my calibration codes printed out from my PCM. Frank said that he knows a guy that does diagnostics on PCMs and would be able to verify the codes for me to submit to GM. Frank calls Diagnostics On Wheels and they arrive within the hour. Since this information is supposedly only available to internal GM engineers I figured that there is really no way to tell if my codes were “stock” or “after-market” because although I had the numbers printed out I needed another z06 to compare them with and it needed to be stock too. I was able to find a few members on the forums that had their verification codes handy and was able to compare the codes. They matched just like I knew that they would. Now I had to prove this to GM.
The week of October 3rd 2010 – Convincing GM to take another look at my PCM codes
Jessica at GM was out on vacation for a very long time so now my case is transferred to another GM specialist, Robin. Robin said that they would review my case and give me a call in a few days to follow up with me. There were numerous times that she did this and it was very annoying. She would even call me to say “Mr. George, I am still looking over your case, is it alright if I call you next week?” I wanted to get everything over with because I am out a lot of money and now it is beginning to cause mental anguish. The next following week I finally get a call back from Robin and I explained to her that I wanted to have my codes resubmitted for GM to look at, but I didn’t want to take them to Munday Chevrolet because they can’t be trusted. I told her that I would take my car anywhere else, but there. Again, she stated that she would talk to a supervisor and see if they could get this approved. Finally after a week Robin calls me back and said that she has spoken with Manny Sosa and he has agreed to let me have my PCM codes resubmitted at a different dealership. During this time I am beginning to think GM is finally going to own up to their faulty car and I am going to get reimbursed because Robin stated several times that she had “good news.”
The following weeks leading up to November 4th 2010.
For some reason my instinct tells me that GM isn’t going to pay for any of the damages and they are just going to lie to me again. Meantime at Frank’s Vettes my car has been repaired and has a brand new engine installed. (Keep in mind this is going on for weeks) I am excited that I have my car back, but I am not excited about the new burden it carries. What was once a reasonably car to own is now a very expensive car to own. On top of the original investment I had to spend approximately another $17,000. I decided that halfway through my fight with GM that they probably were not going to own up to paying anywhere near this amount, so I wanted catch them in a lie. Remember when I said, how can I prove that my PCM is stock? Well, since GM approved of me taking my car back up to another dealership and NOT MUNDAY since they lied about my valves and PCM they approved to let me resubmit my PCM codes again. This time everything was BRAND NEW. I decided to replace it all. Robin gives me a call back and said that Buckalew Chevrolet in Conroe, Texas (near my house) is expecting you and they are going to resubmit your PCM codes to us. So, with my freshly installed motor with less than 1000 miles on it, I decided to take it up to the dealership and have them submit my PCM codes to GM’s internal engineers. Harold at Buckalew Chevrolet said it would only take about 30 minutes and their engineers should be able to have an answer right away. A few days go by no call from Robin at the corporate office so I decided to call her because I knew it didn’t take this long. Finally after being on hold, I am able to speak to Robin. Robin stated, “Mr. George, we received your PCM codes and the codes did not come back as stock. I am sorry, but at this time we are not going to be able to assist you in payment for your new motor.” Now I am irate because this is absolutely impossible! The original PCM was reset when the motor was replaced. The new motor is stock without any modifications whatsoever and has a warranty included. I have every single part of my old motor sitting in my garage! How could GM tell me that my brand new motor and PCM is not stock? They have again, flat out lied to me! Now I am really mad! Does that mean if my brand new GM motor blows up again that GM will not cover it under warranty because of the exact same issue? GM needs to take responsibility for this and pay for the new motor that I had to buy! I have attached a picture of the original valve that caused my engine to blow up and PCM codes that had nothing to do with my engine blowing up. Oh and to top it all off, Robin at GM said if I want a copy of any of the documentation that I need to write and official letter to GM requesting it. Isn’t that a load of crap!
People not to trust:
Munday Chevrolet, Manny Sosa, Louis Anzaldua, GM headquarters, Corvettes of Houston, racingvette
Case # 71-868278908 – This letter is being sent out to a lot of people!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
155 Posts
Back up a min. The PCM was replaced when and why? That sounds fishy. If the PCM had a program that was from the previous owner they need to pay up. However you should not put money into into the car till you have a check in your hand to cover cost. I would try another dealer first..

This is one reason I like the handheld programmers over custom programming; you can flash back to stock in the dealership parkinglot...before you drop the keys off.

Sorry to hear your bad news, I don't want to sound like a dik but I am just looking for holes to help solidify your case; they voided my warantee for non stock plugs that I never touched.....I went round and round with them but truth be known I missed a gear 3rd to 2nd. Booooom I had to build a new motor as well...it had nothing to do with plugs, driver error.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
In response to Jrgeorge

The customer towed the car to us with some parts of the engine taken apart by some other shop. We found that the engine needed to be replaced and as per our contract with GM on any vehicle that needs an engine we checked the codes on the engine and sent them to GM so they could approve the claim to put a new engine in the corvette under warranty. GM reported back that the program in the PCM (power control module) had been modified and GM denied the warranty claim. The issue was not the values but the programming of the power control module. We wanted to do the work on the vehicle but we couldn't do it under warranty so the customer took it to another shop.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
535 Posts
What a bunch of BS..They just dont want to fix it under warranty....They want you to shell out your hard earned cash...Shame on them!

:spanked:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In response to Munday Chevrolet

PCM codes - they match with other z06's.jpg

-Louis Anzaldua from Munday Chevrolet stated that it couldn't be covered under warranty because the valves were after market! Look at the PART number on the valve! They are posted in the pdf and I will post them again along with the PCM codes. The car was recently certified by GM, so if any tampering was done to the PCM, it was done by an un-qualified shop like your own. It was taken to Frank's Vette because Munday Chevrolet wanted to charge me over $20,000 to replace the motor. $5,000 difference is a lot of money when its coming out of my pocket. I had the PCM tested again and the codes came back stock. Munday Chevrolet and GM both fabricated a story to not do warranty work. They knew one way or another a guy with a z06 isn't going to let his car sit and rot. Of course I was going to get it fixed and after talking to another guy (customer at Munday) that had to take his z06 back Munday 6 times to fix the motor, I figured it was better to take my car to Frank's Vettes because the PRESIDENT OF THE SAM HOUSTON CORVETTE CLUB recommended it to me when my car broke down on the side of the road. At the end of the day, Munday Chevrolet or GM can't hide from the truth!

Oh and guess what Munday Chevrolet my story is being spread to every Corvette owner/club that I know or that I am part of...so I will make sure I cost you more than $20,000, just like you did me. Fixing to fax this to the corporate headquarters too. Maybe I will get someone's attention. If nothing else tarnish your reputation with my bad experience with yall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
906 Posts
This just makes me feel sick! :surprised
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,410 Posts
You said you had a Certification...was it in writing? If so, why hasn't it been honored?

Do you have the original PCM, the one they say was replaced with the new one?

Do you have the original engine? With the 'non-oem' valves? I think I remember reading on this forum about early LS7's having valve problems, and there was a 'recall' of some sort. I can't remember if it was the rockers spitting the bearings out, or the valve springs breaking...

If you have the original engine you may be able to have some forensic's applied by a good LSx builder to further your case...oops saw you had your mechanic verify the GM oem valves. Interesting point... I don't know of a part number on the oem valves. I have a bunch of oem LS1 valves sitting around my garage and can check on them.

Just trying to give you a bit more info to work with. I hope you get it sorted out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
You said you had a Certification...was it in writing? If so, why hasn't it been honored? I believe I have it, I did a whole vehicle history report on my car. It's never missed an oil change and has been taken in for every recall that has been issued.

Do you have the original PCM, the one they say was replaced with the new one? Yes, I have it all. No way am I going to get rid of any of it. It's hard to argue against all of the evidence I have. I want GM to prove that my PCM caused my engine to blow up and I want them to prove that its not stock. I had my PCM codes submitted twice to GM and yet it came back "not stock" both times. Munday is full of crap and so is GM. There are several certified mechanics that are allowed to work on GM vehicles

Do you have the original engine? With the 'non-oem' valves? I think I remember reading on this forum about early LS7's having valve problems, and there was a 'recall' of some sort. I can't remember if it was the rockers spitting the bearings out, or the valve springs breaking...I remember reading something about the valve problem on one of the forums, I think it was over at z06vette.com. After I bought my car I took my car to the dealership because there was a recall on the differential fluid used. I also asked the dealership if there were any other recalls on my car and they said it was good. A few weeks later my traction control lights came on in my car. I had to return the car to the dealership again because there was a recall for that too. I know they had to have updated my PCM to clear the codes, but that's all "internal" information unless there is a subpenoa, and there will be...

If you have the original engine you may be able to have some forensic's applied by a good LSx builder to further your case...oops saw you had your mechanic verify the GM oem valves. Interesting point... I don't know of a part number on the oem valves. I have a bunch of oem LS1 valves sitting around my garage and can check on them.You have to scrape all of the carbon off of them, they are there..it looks like Munday Chevrolet is changing their statement and are arguing my PCM more than the valves....again, I can prove this too. I had my PCM printed out by Frank's Vettes a few times. If anyone had edited anything with my PCM it would have been Munday or Buckalew. (Which are both dealerships)

Just trying to give you a bit more info to work with. I hope you get it sorted out.
Answered in Black above
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
606 Posts
You admit you swapped the PCM, that is clear you know the PCM has been hacked and just because there were GM values does not mean they had not been modified.

Gut feelings from your ramblings :

The piston tops look like the tune was bad, way too rich and tune having too much timing causing valve float and wacking piston top

The fact you quickly changed the engine before sending engine for GM to examine says something stinks.

Add you bought a used Z06 with 25,000 miles on it you have no idea what past owner(s) did but being as you stated you have run around to 50 other forums whining like a kid that you knew something was not legal as to meeting GM warranty and getting rid of the existing PCM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
You admit you swapped the PCM, that is clear you know the PCM has been hacked and just because there were GM values does not mean they had not been modified. It wasn't "swapped" it was replaced when the new motor was installed a month later. Louis at Munday said that the intake and the PCM will need to be replaced with the new motor installation or the new warranty would be invalid. Believe me, I would have rather have went the cheap route.

Gut feelings from your ramblings :Well let's see what a lawyer says with all of the evidence against GM and Munday!

The piston tops look like the tune was bad, way too rich and tune having too much timing causing valve float and wacking piston top This I find funny. Both the mechanics that looked at my car were impressed with how little wear the engine had on it. Quit being a dumbass. The only reason why the PCM was replaced was because the dealership said it needed to be replaced along with the intake or the new engine warranty would be invalid. Believe me, I would have loved to use the old PCM because it would have saved money. I still have the blown motor, the pcm, and vin print out of every part was installed in my car. If you want to keep arguing with me on this give me a call, 832-303-2704. For someone that didn't know valves had numbers on them, you sure are quick to open your mouth.

The fact you quickly changed the engine before sending engine for GM to examine says something stinks. Quickly changed the engine? I guess it took a month to do while fighting GM on it. They denied the claim because of the "valves being after market" initially. And I don't remember being offered the ability to send the engine off to GM. IF they want the engine they can still have it. I plan on keeping it until this is all over. It wasn't quick. I had to pull money out of my savings bonds which took over 2 weeks, order a new motor since GM wouldnt, and then wait for it to be installed. The whole process took a really long time. I don't know where you got your time line from, but nice try.

Add you bought a used Z06 with 25,000 miles on it you have no idea what past owner(s) did but being as you stated you have run around to 50 other forums whining like a kid that you knew something was not legal as to meeting GM warranty and getting rid of the existing PCM.
The last owner was in his 60s, I seriously doubt he did anything to the car. He added mild-to-wild to the car because his wife bitched just as much as you do. The car fax was perfect on the car and GM thoroughly insppected the car before I bought it. Again, nice try.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
606 Posts
The last owner was in his 60s, I seriously doubt he did anything to the car. He added mild-to-wild to the car because his wife bitched just as much as you do. The car fax was perfect on the car and GM thoroughly insppected the car before I bought it. Again, nice try.
Again nice try but you took a EPA smog device which by law cannot be changed unless by GM and changed it even though it was not faulty. Big flag :spanked:

You claim you bought the Z06 2 months ago ( early Sept) but engine blew up on Sept 2nd.

Then add you brought the car into a dealer for warranty but show up at dealer with some other shop already taking engine apart and you really think GM just fell out of a tree :WTF

GM does NOT inspect any used cars, dealers do so cry to them but you bought a Z06 that either was trashed by other owners or you knew PCM was tuned and why of all the issues you had PCM changed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Oh, maybe I left that part out, I bought the car in April, the motor blew up on the 2nd of Sept. I dont know how to make it clear to you, but all of the work was done by Frank's Vettes. Not me you moron.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Again nice try but you took a EPA smog device which by law cannot be changed unless by GM and changed it even though it was not faulty. Big flag :smackI didn't do the work, you want to see my invoice of the work that was done to my car?

.
The work was done by an independent certified mechanic becuase I didn't trust Munday to do the work. They lied about the valves initially and then about the PCM second.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Back up a min. The PCM was replaced when and why? That sounds fishy. If the PCM had a program that was from the previous owner they need to pay up. However you should not put money into into the car till you have a check in your hand to cover cost. I would try another dealer first..

This is one reason I like the handheld programmers over custom programming; you can flash back to stock in the dealership parkinglot...before you drop the keys off.

Sorry to hear your bad news, I don't want to sound like a dik but I am just looking for holes to help solidify your case; they voided my warantee for non stock plugs that I never touched.....I went round and round with them but truth be known I missed a gear 3rd to 2nd. Booooom I had to build a new motor as well...it had nothing to do with plugs, driver error.
So you think the preivous owner might have had the car tuned and changed out the valves? The valves had GM part numbers on them and the PCM codes were printed out for verification. Then the PCM had to be replaced with the new motor I thought?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,146 Posts
The last owner was in his 60s, I seriously doubt he did anything to the car. He added mild-to-wild to the car because his wife bitched just as much as you do. The car fax was perfect on the car and GM thoroughly insppected the car before I bought it. Again, nice try.
Um, you obviously haven't met Ivan(iburke). Just because someone is in their 60's doesn't mean they don't like speed or the parts that get them there.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
30,448 Posts
Um, you obviously haven't met Ivan(iburke). Just because someone is in their 60's doesn't mean they don't like speed or the parts that get them there.
Quit talking about Gramps. :laughing:

Well this thread has gotten interesting. I was specifically told by a GM technician that GM is no longer honoring and warranties if you do any programming to the PCM. This was earlier this year. Now I'm not saying that this is what the OP did or was done to his car, just stating what I was told by a GM technician.

I'll stick around just to see where this goes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,410 Posts
One thing keeps me from getting totally upset by GM... Why was the PCM replaced? If a valve dropped for some reason and trashed the motor due to the timing chain breaking or other mechanical mayhem, that would be mechanical damage confined to the motor. The PCM should not need to be replaced.

Example: In my sig I'm running a Lingenfelter 403 in my '99. It got there because I dropped a washer into the number 7 hole without realising it and destroyed the piston in that cylinder, scored the liner, and cracked the block when I started it...dumb? yeah, but my fault. I removed the old motor, installed the new one and built it up, and just changed the tune in the PCM. I didn't need a new one.

Just sayin'...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
230 Posts
One thing keeps me from getting totally upset by GM... Why was the PCM replaced? If a valve dropped for some reason and trashed the motor due to the timing chain breaking or other mechanical mayhem, that would be mechanical damage confined to the motor. The PCM should not need to be replaced.

Example: In my sig I'm running a Lingenfelter 403 in my '99. It got there because I dropped a washer into the number 7 hole without realising it and destroyed the piston in that cylinder, scored the liner, and cracked the block when I started it...dumb? yeah, but my fault. I removed the old motor, installed the new one and built it up, and just changed the tune in the PCM. I didn't need a new one.

Just sayin'...
+ 1

I want to see what happens but the fact that the PCM was changed is what I find interesting.

Luckily I have always dealt with amazing dealer with all of my cars
including chevy where I bought this in fact they even gave me 9 free oil changes and a lifetime powertrain warranty :thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
1 - 20 of 71 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top