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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Morning gentlemen, First post for me although ive been active reader since October when I bought my first 76' vette. I wanted to show some pics of what I was doing this weekend and some of my hangups, in case people can point out something I did wrong etc.



Bought a 2 owner '76 vette last October. This is my fun car, so even tho its a numbers matching, Ill be having a lot of fun upgrading changing modifing over the next 20 yrs, but I digress. It needed a clutch since I got it, so over the winter I went a searching and found a nice Centerforce 2 friction disk and pressure plate. Me being me, I also figured the flywheel might need to be resurfaced at the last or even replaced, so I bought an AC Delco replacement (made in china go figure). I also bought a many a new parts to replace any potential wear n tear, eg throwout, fork, pilot bearing etc. Yesterday I got the fun job of installing the new clutch!

So, I arrived at girls' uncles house (Owns a 69 camaro among other fun toys) who offered to help as he was familiar with GM of that era. We lifted the car and the first thing he noticed was that my 4 speed T10 Borg Warner does not have a removable cross member. ( I had already known this and the trick of rotating the T10 for removal) He got a little nervous as all that he has done have had removable cross members. But we decided to go ahead and give it a try.

(For the record his assumed time for removal and install was 4 hrs, i was guessing 6. Both so wrong!)

So we had the car jacked up, and removed the drive shaft.

Also removed the associated lock out cable (not positive on tech name, but the cable that prevents the key from removal if not in reverse) and the speedo. I removed the T handle from the shifter along with the console cover and bottom rubber boot. This is the start of where we misunderstood/misread/didnt understand ambiguous etc directions.

Note : To remove transmission, the shifter bracket must be removed (ideal) or extremely loose. To do this, the shifter linkage must be removed! On my T10 it requires 2 Bolts that are hard to reach that attach the shifter linkage to the frame of the car. (Not to the transmission, which I find odd).



After this we removed tranny mount bolts, and fought a long time (approximately 2-3 hrs) trying to remove the transmission without realizing we had to remove the shifter linkage before the shifter bracket would be able to move enough to back the T10 up.

One we figured that the linkage must be removed, I felt the first (and I do say somewhat satisfying) transmission ever removed onto mine own chest. (Note, they are heavy, it sucks, but Ive lifted a cast iron tranny into a truck which are a lot heavier.)



Once we got the tranny out it was relatively easy to remove the starter, bell housing cover, bell housing, pressure plate, friction disc and flywheel. Just be careful to leave 2 bolts in loose so that when ur ready you can remove one, let said part swing down slowly (Not on your head preferably) then remove the other. Learned that the hard way to many times to count!



So as you can see, Ill be down here again doing a rear main seal and what I believe is the cam cover/plug to fix the leaking oil. All in all, I don't think its so bad for a 30+ yr car, but I am young an smitten with all that is chevy.

The new flywheel went on easy (If you want you can check thrust bearing clearance here by measuing the flywheel, pushing the flywheel forward and back to find a maximum clearance. Havn't tried this yet tho), little locktite for extra piece of mind. We put in a new needle pilot bearing (more woes later) but first removed the old bushing. This was done first with a socket that was a slip fit and filling the passage with grease. This did not work as the socket needed to be tighter. Then we used a Camaro Input shaft with coarse spline to push the grease which pushed the bearing out rather easily. Just a few good blows with a hammer on the input shaft compresses the grease which when behind the pushing pushes it out. The new pilot was replaced with said input shaft.

Friction disc was lined up with a plastic fine spline pilot tool (get the metal one if you can, but the plastic one worked) and then bolted on the centerforce 2 pressure plate.

I tried to order a new ball pivot and fork, however the "standard" GM pivot pushes against a cup, wheres my vette uses a pin. Make sure to get the right one.

My Fork



Incorrect "Std GM" Fork



We attached the bell housing (You should use a dial indicator to make sure of bellhousing positioning, however I didnt have one. GM provided 2 pins to center the bellhousing but these are not always perfect, I do recomend checking this when you can), removed the centering tool, then tried to install the T10. We were able to get it within 3/4 of an inch of meeting up, but bolt holes were not quite right. We removed the tranny to make sure the throwout bearing was in the right place and that everything was centered. You may have to rotate the Adj Yoke to change the orientation of the input shaft splines.

Alright so now we were like WTF ... the tranny should be meeting up, we put in the alignment tool, it seemed to go in all the way. We removed the pressure plate an friction disc. We decided that maybe it was a faulty pilot bearing ( I had bought a nice roller pilot ) that wasnt allowing the transmission to slip in. We removed the old one (it was destroyed in the process btw) and installed the previous one. Sry but don't have a pic. It was a brass colored bushing with minor wear but still seemed serviceable. At this point were prolly 7 hrs or so into the removal and install. At this point I prolly should have taken a break, but I was taking up more time then I meant of someone else's garage and I hate imposing.

So, after the previous bushing was reinstalled we put the friction disc and pressure plate back on. Then instead of putting the bell housing etc, we decided to see if the T10 would fit into the bushing. So back putting the T10 into the car. Low an behold, it fit. So, removed the tranny, started putting the bell housing on. A note about the bell housing. It has 6 bolts, two on top and two on each side. If your doing general fit up, get those top two bolts in tight, then the sides finger tight, and you can check fit up. If you forget to put those top ones in it can be difficult to tighten if your alignment is good.

So now when the T10 was back above the cross member we moved it into the pilot bushing. The splines lined up and we got within maybe a 1/4 inch of the T10 and bell housing surface touching. The bolt holes lined up, so it appeared to be inside the pilot bushing at least some. So we finger tightened the 4 Transmission bolts, and I mean only fingers. You do not want to torque those bolts at all because if your are not aligned you will strip the aluminum and have a very bad day. Don't hit the adj yoke either, the transmission should go in relatively easily with some jiggling.

So now the transmission was attached to the bell housing and we started to install the misc brackets and shift linkage. The first time we installed the shifter linkage we installed it backwards. Look at the pics below to make sure you get the assembly right ( I think this is my current hangup btw).




So we removed the shifter again. Whomever designed that linkage was never underneath a car. You cant really get to the lower bolt in the car, the top bolt wont slide all the way out, and is a general PITA with the transmission installed.

We thought we had the shifter correctly installed and tried hooking everything else back up. Again, the Ebrake shouldnt be welded but bolted, and on the other side. This would have provided a lot more room to maneuver things.

So after we got everything installed, we tried to adjust the clutch play. We did this by feel, but there is an actual procedure from GM, I suggest following it as I know I will be adjusting this clutch for awhile, or will go back next weekend and adjust it according to specs.

BTW by the appropriate book. It helps a lot. (Yes this is for '74, however I do have the '76 supplement. GM didnt produce brand new books each year)

So at this point we are at approximately 11 hrs or so into this. (Told ya both wrong on time estimates lol). We started the car and it sounded as if it was fighting the clutch. A chugging or surging sound, that was not normal when I drove it up early in the morning. It didnt stall however, and the noise didnt change when I put the clutch in or out. I tried changing gears, however the rear wheels never spun. These two issues (Change in sound an no power to rear wheels) prompted us to stop an swear etc.

We tried adjusting the shift linkage and reviewed how it is supposed to be installed but it seems to be correct. We did not use the neutral pin/tab thingy for adjustment however. We thought the T10 was shifting correctly because we never changed the adjustment bolts. The top of the mechanism is attached with 2 bolts to a bracket so it can't really move position when removing and reinstalling. We assumed that the linkages would be the same but I am no longer sure of this. I wonder if the Tranny may not be in the same place and that its messing with shift linkages? OR that maybe some of them moved and that I now need to either remove and set neutral somehow, or try to do it on the car. But there is very limited room to get the neutral tab/pin in place. Any thoughts?

This morning I was able to get some correct movement out of the shifter. I am able to depress the clutch in first and have free rear wheel travel (clutch disengaged). Then when I remove my foot the clutch engages, and the rear wheels are super hard to turn. So I am somewhat confident that my clutch job was ok and that my problem is in the T10 linkage.


BTW, lots of props to Josh. I know he is a very active member, and I thought he might have an idea what was wrong. I called and he responded within the hr and gave me a few tips that I will be checking soon regarding the position of the reverse lever that he has had issue with before.

All told it was approximately 14 hrs or so before I left using one of their cars. I played with the linkage some today and was able to get easy shifting between 1-4 but no reverse. I think with another 2 or 3 hrs, and hopefully somehow figuring out how to use /fabricate a neutral alignment tool I may be home free on that front. I'm still debating between towing to my itsbitsy garage with now room nor tools, or a friends with a center lift (I'd feel bad imposing tho because he is gone for the week and I'll be gone next week).

The surging or chuging I am not even thinking about until I can get the car to shift again correctly.



(more to come with pictures too)
(Put some pics in, I didnt get a chance to take any of the current shift linkage. Ill me towing either tonight or tomorrow and when I get it to my garage and on the stands Ill take a few more pics... thanks for waiting)
 

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If you look at the body of the shifter, in the bottom center of it there's a hole or slot in a tab that hangs down- pin that and the shifter itself is in neutral. Set the 1-2 and 3-4 levers on the trans in the center position and the reverse lever forward(in neutral- it only has 2 positions), then adjust all the rods so they slip in the levers easily. Lock them down and pin them, pull the pin out of the neutral gate, and you're done.

Good luck with your new clutch!
 

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holy smokes, that's a helluva first post! :laughing:

I had to rebuild my M21 a few years ago and can sympathize with the difficulty of working around the fixed crossmember. Here's me wrestling the thing out of my '69:


once you post the pics we might be able to see something not lining up quite right.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Got the car back to my garage n bought some new stands and jacks. Going to put it up tonight after work. I had a few questions about the above linkage adjustment.

The picture makes it look like the shift lever sits down in the locating groove. Does the "locating tool" sit underneath the tab of the shift lever? Or is there some certain position to put the lever before I can insert the locating tool all the way to reverse? The GM book mentions using 0.644 " but not if width or thickness?

Thanks again for the help, Ill post some pictures of the linkage tonight when I get back from the garage.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well I got the car up on my new stands. Tight garage but made it work. I started by making a locating tool out of 16 gauge sheet metal folded over once. I made it approx 9/16" wide or so and about 5 inches long before folding it.



Here is a pic or two of the linkage. I tried to fit the alignment tool in but it was rather tough, so I pulled the shifter linkage out to re-grease and make sure the tool fit correctly.



Here is the tool inserted all the way through the plate. I tried to reinstall the linkage with this setup but after I got the top bolt started I had to remove the locating tool partially to move what I will call the reverse finger plate (not sure of the tech name) to allow access to the second mounting bolt.

Now that it was attached back to the linkage bracket I moved the rod and finger plate back and forth till I was able to insert the locating tool back into reverse.

TimAT was right on with his procedure, worked like a charm. I now have all shift positions with ease.

I was wondering if there is a specific place for the reverse lockout lever? The cable seems about had it after 30 years and thought about replacing it. Or even potentially removing it some how.

Also, anyone know what this switch is? It's currently broke/disconnected so I'll be ordering it once someone can tell me what it is / how to remove it :)




Before I left for the night I took another look at the clutch. Looks like the first inch or so is just free play, the next 2 to 4 is somewhat hard to push, but really doesn't free the clutch much. Then the last inch or so is much harder to push and releases the pressure plate a lot more. I'm not sure if this is enough tho, and am wondering what other people have done? Again its a centerforce 2 clutch, and I seem to be almost out of room with clutch adjustment. I'm going to try the GM method and see how that does?
 

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It's been awhile since mine had one but I'm pretty sure that is for the reverse lights. Should be a small rod that is connected to the reverse tab on the linkage that turns on switch when you put it into reverse. Your stock one should have a small slot on one of the mounting bolts so it can be adjusted.
 

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Yep, Fred and Rat hit it right on- reverse lights.

That cable is the reverse lock- you have to be in reverse to turn the key to the "lock" position and remove it. Easy to get rid of- just take it off- at the upper end of the cable (just forward of the firewall on the steering column) the lever that it hooks to needs to be secured as far up toward the brake master cylinder as it will go.
Keep in mind that with this cable removed, there is nothing keeping the trans in gear- someone gets in with no key, kicks it pout of gear and takes the park brake off it's free to roll.
 

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Good luck with the new vette, looks like a keeper. FYI, your trans should be a Super T10, the T10 were used up until mid 63 then the Muncie's were used until 74.
Do yourself a favor and install a Hurst shifter, forget about the reverse lockout it won't stop anyone from stealing the car as it was sold as 40 years ago.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ive looked into Hurst shifters, they are about 450$ or so for the shifter and linkage kit. I prolly would have if I hadnt had to buy jack, stands, lights etc but I just spent the extra dough I had to get it back n ready to work on in my garage :(.....


Anyways I got the shifter working great, Did a clutch adjust and it seems to be about right. Near the end of the travel it deff seems like I have a soft portion of pedal travel, then the last inch is really hard. And that last inch is what really disengages the clutch.

I also started it tonight and it seems off to me. There is a sound that I find hard to describe, but it wasn't there when I drove up to NH on saturday. I'm trying to post a link in here but idk if itll work. Any help would be appreciated in identifying whats wrong.....



and the second vid

 

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Well I got the car up on my new stands. Tight garage but made it work. I started by making a locating tool out of 16 gauge sheet metal folded over once. I made it approx 9/16" wide or so and about 5 inches long before folding it.



Here is a pic or two of the linkage. I tried to fit the alignment tool in but it was rather tough, so I pulled the shifter linkage out to re-grease and make sure the tool fit correctly.



Here is the tool inserted all the way through the plate. I tried to reinstall the linkage with this setup but after I got the top bolt started I had to remove the locating tool partially to move what I will call the reverse finger plate (not sure of the tech name) to allow access to the second mounting bolt.

Now that it was attached back to the linkage bracket I moved the rod and finger plate back and forth till I was able to insert the locating tool back into reverse.

TimAT was right on with his procedure, worked like a charm. I now have all shift positions with ease.

I was wondering if there is a specific place for the reverse lockout lever? The cable seems about had it after 30 years and thought about replacing it. Or even potentially removing it some how.

Also, anyone know what this switch is? It's currently broke/disconnected so I'll be ordering it once someone can tell me what it is / how to remove it :)




Before I left for the night I took another look at the clutch. Looks like the first inch or so is just free play, the next 2 to 4 is somewhat hard to push, but really doesn't free the clutch much. Then the last inch or so is much harder to push and releases the pressure plate a lot more. I'm not sure if this is enough tho, and am wondering what other people have done? Again its a centerforce 2 clutch, and I seem to be almost out of room with clutch adjustment. I'm going to try the GM method and see how that does?
Did you measure the distance from the pivot ball to the flywheel, per CF instructions, when you installed the clutch?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
So I read that, didnt have anything to really measure with any accuracy. And I dont have an adjustable pivot, so how would I even adjust if it was wrong? I did notice that the CF throwout was maybe .030 longer in depth then the throwout bearing I removed, but that should be taken up in end play.

(In short, didnt measure it. What makes you think that is the problem?)
 

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I've listened to your videos several times and it seems that there are a few times when the niose doesn't keep pace with the engine speed. You can hear the engine rev, but the noise doesn't increase. Near the end of the first video, you accelerate the engine and the noise definitely speeds up too. It's like there's a lag at times. Have you looked at your fan and the clearance between the blades and the shroud? I know this sounds crazy, but the fan clutch could account for the lag.
 

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With the engine running, use a stethoscope or a big screwdriver held to your ear and try to identify where this noise is coming from. That would help.

With the engine off, lift the clutch pedal toward the dash against the stop and measure the distance to the floor (where the floor starts rising up to meet the firewall). Using just your hand, push the pedal toward the floor until you start to feel a little resistance. Measure the distance to the floor at that point also. The difference should be about 1-1/2".

Another dumb thought, did you install the clutch disc with the springs away from the flywheel?
 

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In your video, that noise sounds to me exactly like that tin dust shield on the front of the bellhousing rubbing on the flywheel. It gets slightly worse when you push the clutch down, that makes perfect sense since you're driving the crank/flywheel forward (toward the dust shield) when you push the clutch.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
I deff thought of potentially incorrectly installing the friction disk, but I remember the sticker with "flywheel side" going to the new flywheel. I am going to check it this weekend when I get access to a boroscope (going to stick it in next to the fork if it'll fit).

Glen, I thought some more and reread the CF instructions. I called CF when I was purchasing and told them that this was a completely stock installation (e.g. bell housing, pivot ball, fork, flywheel, engine etc and they suggested this setup specifically). I still have the stock pivot, arm etc, and I just ordered/installed a new oem flywheel. Although I could see a potential to loose maybe 30 tho or so due to different things being worn, I wouldnt think to hear the noise that I do. That should be mostly taken u p in the clutch adjustment, and I do have some free play/clearance. If im not thinking of something please tell me tho.

I was talking to a good friend, and he suggested I check the bell housing cover plate (the thin sheet metal) that it sounds like it might be hitting the flywheel in some position/orientation. He also said to rotate the engine by hand and see / hear where it sticks.

But yeah I am confused, any other thoughts? If I cant tell anything from the boro ill pull the trany again....
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tim ur to fast for me to even post! Yeah I'm going to check it tomorrow. Hopefully thats all it is and Ill be all set for saturday! (minus me needing an oil change... coolant flush/fix leak plus the other mile long list of things I need/should/want to do)
 

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In your video, that noise sounds to me exactly like that tin dust shield on the front of the bellhousing rubbing on the flywheel. It gets slightly worse when you push the clutch down, that makes perfect sense since you're driving the crank/flywheel forward (toward the dust shield) when you push the clutch.
I'll have to get my hearing aid checked, but Tim's thought sounds right on, no pun intended. The noise is probably coming from the top of the dust shield where the flywheel bolts come through the crank flange. The 2 little ears on the dust shield are probably behind the pan rail, instead of on it.

What a great job of deducing the problem on my part, after Tim already solved the problem. :smack
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thats why I dont mind spending time underneath that car.... cause after I took it for a spin I had thie biggest grin on my face and still do!


-Tim, spot on with the bell housing cover. Took it off and started it up and no noise.

-clutch adjustment seems almost spot on, I dont have to depress all the way to totally disengage the clutch (I may be missing a stop I am thinking, ill take a look at the GM book tomorrow)

-when I had it on the stands and started it (after I fixed the tin pan) I noticed a vibration when in second or higher at the right rear wheel. Its one time with the rear wheel, low tone and i can feel it in the seat. It looks like my Ebrake cable is horribly corroded and about to snap. (I do have SS replacement waiting in a box for after I did the clutch). I looked and I cant see anything hitting the wheel, and when I put her on the ground and took her out I couldn't feel nor hear it anymore. Anyone have an incling? I don't want to just forget about it if you know what I mean. Itll rear its ugly head when I least want it to if I ignore it now.

Next project is flushing coolant, finding out why the heater was bypassed, and replacing all the lines and praying that it fixes my 3 or 4 coolant leaks.

Then its taking off the stock rotors and installing SS Ebrake and SS brake lines all around. Seems like the calipers are not stock but idk, so I might need to head to napa if they really are only 70$ a piece for a no leak solution.



Ill post a video soon of it running so you all know im not lieing :devil:


Props again to everyone who helped. Deff lets me know I chose the right forum!
 

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When the rear wheels were off the ground, did you have it supported under the frame or under the trailing arms? If the arms were not supported, the joint angles of the half shafts will cause a vibration.

For the record, I don't get too excited about any vibration that is not with all wheels on the ground and down the road. Too many variables - tire/wheel balance is just one of them.
 
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