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I think if a Corvette came into my job and requested some form of preparation to handle the higher volumes of ethanol going into our fuel, I would install larger fuel injectors, and update the injector size in the engine's controller. I might recommend a fuel pump upgrade or I might not. And if I did it wouldn't be anything crazy, just the next size up.

It is the injector duty cycle being run up so high that makes them fail with the ethanol. Not that the fuel is some kind of caustic toxic substance that eats away what gasoline won't. But it is because it requires more volume to achieve the same post combustion afr's. An engine controller can add or subtract 25% of an injector's duty cycle. And that is what this low volume of ethanol being added to our fuel is relying on. If the Corvette from my first paragraph came back with a full tank of the new fuel, I could then tune the ecu so it wouldn't rely on trim data for fueling corrections and the car could live a very happy life for hundreds of thousands of miles.


All that just to say that the higher levels of ethanol aren't as dangerous to our car's as some would have us believe. There are just political motives here. Or financial, rather.
 

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Corvettes with stock Rochestor Quadrajets & Holley 4bbs & the entire C4 Generation Corvettes in stock form will not like it E15.


If Ethanol Alcohol did not absorb water from the air it would not be an issue.
But it does immediate.
Anything made from Zinc Diecast metal & Cadium plated, Aluminum Hard Anodized, steel will break down & corrode.


Stainless Steel fittings, Lines, & PTFE Race Areoquip & Earls Race Hose will take high Ethanol concentrations.


Many Street Race Cars here run on E85.
They are Purpose built for it.
Thousands put into the fuel systems.


May have to ditch the stock ECM in C4 Corvettes.
Especially the early C4's with the plug in E-prom chips.
Buy an aftermarket Racing ECU.
Or Go to a Dedicated E85 built carb.
Rejet for E15.
 

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I dumped 5 gallons of E85 into my 1963 Pontiac Gp last winter & went for a test ride.
It actually did OK.
Just cruised & hit 100 mph a few times.
Its not True E85 in the winter.
Alcohol content is 50% -65% in the winter .
You can not get an engine to to start in the Midwest reliable or at all on 85 % alcohol content.
Just will not light off period with standard coil on plug ignition when its 32F down to -20F below zero here in Illinois.


Vertex magneto will.
Vertex Mag On my 425 Super Rocket Engine in my 63 Pontiac Gp.
Super Joules High amperage energy at the spark plugs from a Mag.
 

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the entire C4 Generation Corvettes in stock form will not like it E15.


If Ethanol Alcohol did not absorb water from the air it would not be an issue.
But it does immediate.

Evaporative (fuel tank) emissions control systems started back in the middle of the c3's lifespan. What this mean to all of us is that from ~1975 we began controlling the release of fuel vapors into the atmosphere and ever since fuel tanks have been kept sealed from the air so they don't pollute. fuel absorbing water out of the air might be more of a problem on a c2 or c1 with a vented fuel cap or maybe a very early c3. But definitely not a c4. fuel injectors are easy to change and the new accel parts are of a much better design. :thumbsup:
 

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You can not get an engine to to start in the Midwest reliable or at all on 85 % alcohol content.
Just will not light off period with standard coil on plug ignition when its 32F down to -20F below zero here in Illinois.


This is because you do not understand ethanol and how it differs from regular fuel and what changes need to happen to the tune. And that is why all this craziness about changing ecu's and water absorption, and rotting metals comes out of you. So let me help.


Ethanol requires more fuel mass. period. When an engine and ambient temp are low more fuel mass is also required. What you are pointing out here is that you changed fuel and did not open the enrichment screws on your carb. So when it is really cold and the engine needs the most amount of fuel you are way off target for what your carb is supplying to the motor.


Also ethanol likes more timing than gas. And so do colder temps. So you also have not changed timing to accommodate for the new fuel. Tuning is required to run ethanol. You don't just put it in the tank and go. That is why we are pussyfooting around 10-15%. because we are playing with the ecu's trim capabilities.

One more time, NOT because the ethanol is some type of alien acid. My gosh. doesn't anybody else understand that regular fuel is pretty caustic on its own( I mean it combusts, too) and fuel system components are pretty tuff just to handle that fuel?
 

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Vertex magneto will.
Vertex Mag On my 425 Super Rocket Engine in my 63 Pontiac Gp.
Super Joules High amperage energy at the spark plugs from a Mag.

High energy/amperage is so much less important than you make it out to be. And I chase power in Corvettes. If there was one thing about your thinking I would change it would be this. You are not driving your car off the spark from the plugs. The spark from the plugs have nothing to do with power production EXCEPT for WHEN and IF they fire. And your fixed ignition is the worst thing you could do for any air breathing internal combustion engine that is operated down here on the ground floor. fixed ignition I can only imagine would be a **** bad combination with ethanol fuels that like more ignition timing.


What you are missing about fixed ignition systems, brian, is that they are for engines that live at a fixed RPM and load. Does that make sense or does that make a lot of sense? Aircraft have a lever to put the rpm into a certain place and it stays there. changes are slow and infrequent. So aircraft, or older aircraft now enjoy(ed) the greater reliability of much fewer moving timing components and less chances to fail while so high off the ground.


Fixed ignition systems can work at the track because the racecar spends all its time at a constant load. WOT. so a poor idle is accepted for the short time it spends at the tree. Absolutely none of this translates to street driving, bud. Because here we have to make a bunch of sudden and abrupt changes to the engines rpm and load. And beyond your foot, the transmission changes engine load at will based off of vehicle speed vs load vs rpm. And since timing now becomes such a fast moving target we very much need our ignition timing to be moving around. Chasing this load vs. rpm. That is so different from the track. Or 10,000ft.
 

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Evaporative (fuel tank) emissions control systems started back in the middle of the c3's lifespan. What this mean to all of us is that from ~1975 we began controlling the release of fuel vapors into the atmosphere and ever since fuel tanks have been kept sealed from the air so they don't pollute. fuel absorbing water out of the air might be more of a problem on a c2 or c1 with a vented fuel cap or maybe a very early c3. But definitely not a c4. fuel injectors are easy to change and the new accel parts are of a much better design. :thumbsup:
I will find links direct to Grumpys site on this Topic.
You can Argue with a Long Time Mechanical Enginner.
Him.
Grumpy.
 

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High energy/amperage is so much less important than you make it out to be. And I chase power in Corvettes. If there was one thing about your thinking I would change it would be this. You are not driving your car off the spark from the plugs. The spark from the plugs have nothing to do with power production EXCEPT for WHEN and IF they fire. And your fixed ignition is the worst thing you could do for any air breathing internal combustion engine that is operated down here on the ground floor. fixed ignition I can only imagine would be a **** bad combination with ethanol fuels that like more ignition timing.


What you are missing about fixed ignition systems, brian, is that they are for engines that live at a fixed RPM and load. Does that make sense or does that make a lot of sense? Aircraft have a lever to put the rpm into a certain place and it stays there. changes are slow and infrequent. So aircraft, or older aircraft now enjoy(ed) the greater reliability of much fewer moving timing components and less chances to fail while so high off the ground.


Fixed ignition systems can work at the track because the racecar spends all its time at a constant load. WOT. so a poor idle is accepted for the short time it spends at the tree. Absolutely none of this translates to street driving, bud. Because here we have to make a bunch of sudden and abrupt changes to the engines rpm and load. And beyond your foot, the transmission changes engine load at will based off of vehicle speed. And since timing now becomes such a fast moving target we very much need our ignition timing to be moving around. Chasing this load vs. rpm. That is so different from the track. Or 10,000ft.
All the High Boost Cars mainly C5 & C6 Corvettes run on E85 here.
In the race shop I worked at.
I recall district how hard difficult they were to start last fall on a cold morning.
Sometimes to several minutes.
Professional Tuned.
Head Tuner has a 200 mph Texas mile EVO.
Knows his ****.
 

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High energy/amperage is so much less important than you make it out to be. And I chase power in Corvettes. If there was one thing about your thinking I would change it would be this. You are not driving your car off the spark from the plugs. The spark from the plugs have nothing to do with power production EXCEPT for WHEN and IF they fire. And your fixed ignition is the worst thing you could do for any air breathing internal combustion engine that is operated down here on the ground floor. fixed ignition I can only imagine would be a **** bad combination with ethanol fuels that like more ignition timing.


What you are missing about fixed ignition systems, brian, is that they are for engines that live at a fixed RPM and load. Does that make sense or does that make a lot of sense? Aircraft have a lever to put the rpm into a certain place and it stays there. changes are slow and infrequent. So aircraft, or older aircraft now enjoy(ed) the greater reliability of much fewer moving timing components and less chances to fail while so high off the ground.


Fixed ignition systems can work at the track because the racecar spends all its time at a constant load. WOT. so a poor idle is accepted for the short time it spends at the tree. Absolutely none of this translates to street driving, bud. Because here we have to make a bunch of sudden and abrupt changes to the engines rpm and load. And beyond your foot, the transmission changes engine load at will based off of vehicle speed vs load vs rpm. And since timing now becomes such a fast moving target we very much need our ignition timing to be moving around. Chasing this load vs. rpm. That is so different from the track. Or 10,000ft.
Near all are Pro Tour where your at.
No Room to street race.
It's impossible to step on it for longer than 5 seconds.
You showed that.
Just cruise in your part of Florida.
Never gets cold.

Move to Illinois.
Real works weather changes here.
Real challanges.
 

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I will find links direct to Grumpys site on this Topic.
You can Argue with a Long Time Mechanical Enginner.
Him.
Grumpy.
I don't need links from another site. Believing what you read on the internet is obviously for you. My knowledge is backed by the Tuning school, a very long career, a whole lot of a.s.e. testing and re-certifications to include 4 times re-certifying for L1, oh, and more experience than you can shake a really big stick at. The frustrating part in all this for me is that even after all these years and all these threads and literally thousands of pictures posted as counted by photosuckit, you STILL try to question my knowledge in this arena.


Well, the next time it is really cold up there why not put 5 more gallons of ethanol in your car and open the enrichment screws 1/2 - 3/4 turn bump the ignition timing 4 or 6 degrees and start your engine? Instead of just believing something because you read it, how about the testing and finding truth before the accusations fly?
 

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All the High Boost Cars mainly C5 & C6 Corvettes run on E85 here.
In the race shop I worked at.
I recall district how hard difficult they were to start last fall on a cold morning.
Sometimes to several minutes.
Professional Tuned.
Head Tuner has a 200 mph Texas mile EVO.
Knows his ****.
There is a big difference between tuning a car to go down a track real fast and with the most power and tuning a car to start and run in very cold climates. But hey, maybe that is why the manufacturer doesn't sell track cars? Because they are so limited in how they run.
 

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There is a big difference between tuning a car to go down a track real fast and with the most power and tuning a car to start and run in very cold climates. But hey, maybe that is why the manufacturer doesn't sell track cars? Because they are so limited in how they run.

You have only tuned for Florida warm weather.
 

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Near all are Pro Tour where your at.
No Room to street race.
It's impossible to step on it for longer than 5 seconds.
You showed that.
Just cruise in your part of Florida.
Never gets cold.

Move to Illinois.
Real works weather changes here.
Real challanges.
Never. I like the things I build to last. I like to service them and see how they wear as the years wear on so I can make changes and be better and keep building better than the last and always be refining my work. It would break my heart to see the things I built decay so fast from rock salt on the roads to melt the ice and snow.
 

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Home Forums > The Engine Shop / Non-Year Specific > Intake Systems , Fuel Systems and Related >
E15 should you worry?

Discussion in 'Intake Systems , Fuel Systems and Related' started by grumpyvette, Oct 19, 2010.

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  1. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    many of you gentlemen have seen warnings about use of the new E15 fuel containing 15% ethanol, thats similar to or like the current E10 with 10% ethanol, in the fuel,in that its not to be used in cars older than 2007
    the jurys still out guys!
    this seems to be where we are headed whether we want to go that route or not,
    adding 15% ethanol makes gas burn a bit cooler and as such it tends to increase the effective octane, the bad part is that it tends to absorb moisture if the car sits for weeks between drives, and ethanol tends to eat some plastics and aluminum over long term storage, or long term use, if the cars not designed to use ethanol
    adding a lubricant to the fuel like marvel mystery oil , its use helps, reduce corrosion issues noticeably from the tests Ive seen,but its not a cure (about 6 oz per 10 gallons of fuel).
    "Can we use stabil? Will it be at all pumps or just selected pumps? i wonder if a lead substitute can be use with the E 15. "

    its NOT a low octane issue and because its not a lead substitute won,t do much for you
    ethanol has approximately 20-30% less fuel energy per gallon of fuel/air mix burnt,but you can burn about 51% more ethanol,mixed with air and use higher compression for a net gain in power per power stroke in an engine designed to maximize ethanol's burn characteristics
    but your only dealing with a minimal increase in the percentage of ethanol added to the gas so the change is minimal or almost a non-issue
    http://www.ethanolrfa.org/news/entry/ne ... -vehicles/

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... r-vehicles

    http://www.brighterenergy.org/16344/new ... anol-fuel/
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Oct 19, 2010 Edit Delete Report
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  2. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    Kernel Knowledge: One man on a mission to show how ethanol is wrecking your engine

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-plating-pump-diaphragms.10040/#post-39044

    BTW IF YOU WANT TO AVOID ETHANOL LACED FUEL

    http://pure-gas.org/
    has anyone else noticed the fuel you get from the local gas stations is causing problems?
    I,m seeing a good deal more rust and oxidized metal causing carburetor problems,EVEN WITH E10
    Ive seen several guys having rather,obvious corrosion issues in the carburetors of muscle cars that don,t get driven a great deal with the current fuel, and Ive had to replace my weed trimmers, carburetor for similar issues , it seem s that much of the current fuel is less stable over the longer term, its probably that 10%-15% ethanol but its beginning to show up as a suspected cause in a lot of the tuning issues I see, at a far higher frequency that the older fuel caused, especially when I disassemble and inspect carburetors.
    its looking as though the fuel separates over time, into a semi corrosive mix.

    BTW alcohol in fuel tends to cause aluminum to oxidize over time

    http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/2000862202001/
    Due to the instability of gas containing alcohol, shelf life is less than 3 months according to the fuel manufacturers, this is a HUGE issue with engines that don,t get used constantly like lawn equipment, or rarely driven muscle cars

    August 24, 2011

    Kernal_Main
    Kernal_2

    View larger images

    To leave one of Ed Syrocki’s standing-room-only ethanol education seminars is to go home amazed, enlightened, and probably a little upset. Syrocki doesn’t just claim ethanol destroys fuel lines, wrecks fuel pumps and clogs accelerators—he lets you see the damage for yourself. Find out why Syrocki is on a one-man grassroots campaign to educate historic vehicle owners about the damage ethanol fuel is doing to their engines.

    Ed Syrocki just might be the only mechanic in America who’s tired of getting paid for his work.

    “It about my reputation—my ability to fix an engine,” says the owner of EMS Classic Car Care of Warren, Michigan. “It’s being called into question because of things I can’t control.”

    What Syrocki can’t control is what ethanol-blended fuel does to his customers’ engines. Since 1998, Syrocki has specialized in repairing and maintaining all types of historic vehicles.

    “From Corvairs to Lamborghinis,” he says. “We don’t specialize in restoration. We specialize in making these cars run, and run well.”

    Syrocki is plain-spoken and modest about the quality of his work, but the constant parade of customers who travel far and wide to his Warren, Michigan, garage are testament to his integrity and reputation. Since founding EMS Classic Car Care in 1998, feature stories have appeared in a number of automotive magazines and national newspapers. Customers have gone on to present cars at the Meadow Brook Concours and other top shows and concours.

    Despite the wheelchair and crutches he has used since contracting polio in 1957, Syrocki can be found working under the hood almost every day of the week. But these days, he says, most of his hours seem to be spent diagnosing engine problems caused by ethanol-blended fuel.

    More Time, More Repairs

    Ethanol—a blend of ethyl alcohol and gasoline (usually 10 percent ethanol, known as E10)—acts as a solvent that is believed to cause problems for older cars with engines not designed for this type of fuel.

    “In the past three years, work on fuel-related repairs has more than doubled,” he says. “Gas tanks, floats going bad, fuel pumps, carburetors—where it used to be that most of our work was related to other mechanical problems, now three days every week is spent working on cars with fuel systems damaged by ethanol-blended fuel.”

    Since founding the company, Syrocki has always made follow-up calls to customers after their car left his shop to see how the vehicle was performing.

    “But people started calling me and saying the same problem was back,” he says. “And it wasn’t just after a long winter ‘sitting period’ when the car was left in the garage. I found that E10 damage to a vehicle’s fuel systems can begin if the car is left to sit only a few weeks. Based on what I seen, I believe that with E15 the damage would be almost instantaneous.”

    In the Trenches

    For the last three years, Syrocki has collected cracked and damaged fuel system parts. He’s conducted his own fuel tests. When a customer would reappear complaining of the same engine trouble over and over again, Syrocki took the time to show them gas samples so they could see ethanol fuel separation. He tore apart gas tanks and cut open damaged fuel lines to show the effects of ethanol. Then he also told customers what they could do to prevent the damage in the future:

    “Use a soy-based fuel additive,” he says (Syrocki recommends Shaeffer Oil’s Soy Ultra, which encapsulates the damaging water molecules ethanol fuel attracts). “Never let the vehicle sit without topping off the tank and keep your fingers crossed.”

    Finally, one Saturday this past July, Syrocki decided to take his findings and his message to the masses. He opened his garage and on the night of his first free slide show and three-hour presentation, every one of the 200 chairs in the place was full.

    Ethanol Show-And-Tell

    “I’m just a mechanic who fixes this stuff,” he says. “I’m not a scientist, but people were spellbound. The seminar is like a show-and-tell.”

    Syrocki does for a room full of people what he used to do for customers, one at a time. He’s conducted three ethanol education seminars for historic vehicle enthusiasts this summer and is planning more.

    “I’m volunteering all my time because ethanol is just wrong,” he says, adding that he has yet to find a sure-fire cure to help historic vehicle owners completely protect their investment. “I tell people to contact their senators and demand that we just get rid of it.”

    With government subsidies and farmers making money on corn grown for fuel, Syrocki understands that ethanol might never go away. In the meantime, he’d be happy to see states be able to opt out of using ethanol fuel or simply to see a lonely pump in the corner of every filling station that serves up pure unleaded fuel.

    “I understand the market of those in the business of ethanol. I have a market for repairs,” says Syrocki. “I just don’t believe in letting damage happen on the backs of others. And I don’t like having to do the same job twice.”

    The Historic Vehicle Association has already assisted Ed Syrocki in providing ethanol education materials, information on how to contact lawmakers, sample letters from individuals and clubs to congress and direction on how to sign our EthaNo Petition. To find out how you can attend the next ethanol education seminar hosted by Syrocki should contact him through his website
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2016
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Aug 31, 2011 Edit History Delete Report
    #2 Like + Quote Reply


  3. grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member



    http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/co ... php?cID=82

    http://www.horsepowerinnovations.com/co ... php?cID=81

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/hybrid-electric/a6244/e15-gasoline-damage-engine/

    http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_lib ... h/me1.html

    http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22198/

    http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp ... ewall.html

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/al ... age-engine

    heres a few links to info on setting up for and running E85 fuel, its a reasonably cheap alternative to race octane fuel as its far less likely to detonate in a high compression engine, as its 85% ETHANOL ALCOHOL, now that will obviously require changes to your fuel and induction and ignition systems but it is an option, if you want to have a good deal more potential horsepower
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2017
    IF YOU CAN,T SMOKE THE TIRES AT WILL,FROM A 60 MPH ROLLING START YOUR ENGINE NEEDS MORE WORK!!"!
    IF YOU CAN , YOU NEED BETTER TIRES AND YOUR SUSPENSION NEEDS MORE WORK!!

    grumpyvette, Mar 27, 2012 Edit History Delete Report
    #3 Like + Quote Reply





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I feel somewhat less informed for reading that. And BTW, are you trying to insinuate that now grumpy is or might be or might have ever been near the level of "professional tuner"? That he should be taken as an authority on how to run a specific fuel in a given engine? hmmm. Well, I personally would like to see some of grumpy's tuning work. I have posted up no shortage, again over the years, of hptuners, Jet DST, TunerCats, AEM Tuner, and other tuning solutions I have used to properly calibrate an engine. Haven't seen too much of that anywhere over on grumpy's site. Nice ratrod he built, though.
 

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Never. I like the things I build to last. I like to service them and see how they wear as the years wear on so I can make changes and be better and keep building better than the last and always be refining my work. It would break my heart to see the things I built decay so fast from rock salt on the roads to melt the ice and snow.
When I see people from Florida here in Winter they are literally dieing from the cold weather.
 

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I feel somewhat less informed for reading that. And BTW, are you trying to insinuate that now grumpy is or might be or might have ever been near the level of "professional tuner"? That he should be taken as an authority on how to run a specific fuel in a given engine? hmmm. Well, I personally would like to see some of grumpy's tuning work. I have posted up no shortage, again over the years, of hptuners, Jet DST, TunerCats, AEM Tuner, and other tuning solutions I have used to properly calibrate an engine. Haven't seen too much of that anywhere over on grumpy's site. Nice ratrod he built, though.

I know one thing for sure Wiz He had a Faster Corvette than You have back in his prime days.
It Did wheelstands on launch.
Pretty Bass in my Book.
He built it & Tuned it.
 
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