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http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B96DB20101210
this death could have easily been prevented.
(Reuters) - A jury on Friday handed a manslaughter conviction to a Philadelphia couple whose two-year-old son died after they prayed for his recovery from pneumonia rather than taking him to a doctor.
Herbert Schaible, 42, and his wife Catherine, 41, were each found guilty of involuntary manslaughter and endangering the welfare of a child after the death of their two-year-old son Kent from bacterial pneumonia.
During a three-day trial, prosecutors said the couple, who belong to a fundamentalist church that teaches faith healing, put the boy to bed and prayed over him when he appeared to have a heavy cold, rather than taking him to a doctor. He died on January 24, 2009 after a two-week illness.
Defense attorneys argued during the trial at the Philadelphia Court of Common Pleas that the parents, who have seven other children, did not know their son was in danger of dying because the symptoms were no different from a common cold or flu.
The jury of eight men and four women returned the unanimous verdict after deliberating for a day and a half.
Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore said she was happy with the outcome of the "sad" case.
Pescatore said the verdict shows parents have a legal responsibility to care for and protect their children.
"It's not enough to pray for them," she said.
She said she may seek a requirement in the sentencing phase that the couple's seven other children are subject to regular monitoring by a pediatrician.
Bobby Hoof, an attorney for Herbert Schaible, said he had not decided whether to appeal the verdict.
The Schaibles had no visible reaction as the verdict was read, and made no comment as they left the court.
They will be sentenced on February 2. They each face maximum prison terms of five to 10 years on the involuntary manslaughter conviction and three and a half to seven years on the child endangerment conviction.
 

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The attempts to group those believing in God together with those who misinterpret the word of God... is goofy.

Allow me to rewrite the article as I have described above.

A devout atheist gay couple... refused to take their adopted, redheaded stepchild -to the nearby ST. Judas hospital (a subsidiary of Catholic health-care) due to the hospitals stance on religion and homosexuals... believing the child had a common cold. Instead... relying on Mother Nature, their gay activist and atheist activist groups... to drop off chicken soup and place crystals from the bosom of Mother Earth on the child's chest. The child died from complications of pneumonia...
 

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The attempts to group those believing in God together with those who misinterpret the word of God... is goofy.
:laughing: Yep. There are stupid religious people, and stupid anti-religious people. Stupid is, as stupid does. I spent 7 day in Harris Hospital with pneumonia, never once thought about doing anything like that.. :laughing::crazy:
 

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:laughing: Yep. There are stupid religious people, and stupid anti-religious people. Stupid is, as stupid does. I spent 7 day in Harris Hospital with pneumonia, never once thought about doing anything like that.. :laughing::crazy:
Stories like this reinforce the position that everyone would be better off without religion.

:..There are stupid religious people, and stupid anti-religious people..:
I would agree.

:..Stupid is, as stupid does...:
Always best to interpret the book than appear stupid or criminal by doing what it says.
 

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Stories like this reinforce the position that everyone would be better off without religion
Are they so prevalent... that it warrants a complete and utter dismantling of the belief... even though far more charity, treatment, cures and hospitals have been established in the name of one religion or another... then atheism or those that simply disbelieve, combined... could ever imagine ?
 

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Are they so prevalent... that it warrants a complete and utter dismantling of the belief... even though far more charity, treatment, cures and hospitals have been established in the name of one religion or another... then atheism or those that simply disbelieve, combined... could ever imagine ?
Why believe something without sufficient evidence?

Why add the baggage of superstition to community aid?

Here is a quick list of secular charities:
  • American Civil Liberties Union
  • Amnesty International
  • DefCon
  • Doctors without Borders
  • EWB-USA
  • Engineers Without Borders
  • Kiva
  • Oxfam
  • The Nature Conservancy
  • Population Connection
  • Rotary/Rotary International
  • The SEED foundation
  • S.H.A.R.E.
  • The Union of Concerned Scientists
  • UNICEF
  • Planned Parenthood Federation of America
  • NARAL
  • ADSN

I have not checkout out ANY of these. If they are truly secular they will not withhold support or use the threat of torture to force belief without evidence.
 

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It's fairly easy to pick out an incident here and there -in order to make a point... especially when you have 3500 years of history in which to choose from. But, to neglect the overwhelming good that has been accomplished in the name of the same... is to be intellectually dishonest. -As though those incidents are the normality within the belief... rather then the extreme minority, in comparison... and are not indicative of the teachings, itself.
 

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lets say we did get rid of religion... where would your freedom come from ? Where would morality come from. Certainly not the individual... or state, would it ?
 

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It's fairly easy to pick out an incident here and there -in order to make a point... especially when you have 3500 years of history in which to choose from. But, to neglect the overwhelming good that has been accomplished in the name of the same... is to be intellectually dishonest. -As though those incidents are the normality within the belief... rather then the extreme minority, in comparison... and are not indicative of the teachings, itself.
No I am not being intellectually dishonest. Provide an argument that superstitious baggage is needed to make people charitable. If I am wrong I will admit it, but I do not believe so.

Whenever I say “Christians believe…” I get corrected. The fact that there are hundreds of sects all with varying beliefs should worry you. SO, some Christians believe that “belief” is important. The only way to avoid hell is to believe. It does not matter how good a person you are if you are an atheist, to hell you go (and deservedly so).

To these Christians I say: “the lead story in this post is of a Christian who believes. No reservations, he has likely read the bible and believes more than you. If you would take your child to a secular doctor rather than trust god, to hell you will go as well.”

Does the charitable work performed by Hamas indicate that fundamentalist Islam is also desireable?

lets say we did get rid of religion... where would your freedom come from ? Where would morality come from. Certainly not the individual... or state, would it ?
Your rights/freedom comes from the constitution. Morality comes from society and evolution.

If you disagree please define freedom and morality (the answer you disagree with) and explain how the bible reflects our cultures secular moralities/freedom.
 

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....they waited 2 figg'in weeks....:WTF ....lets say their
fundamentalist church that teaches faith healing,
failed them big time...did they learn from this, don't know
if they still are members....:huh:

....if my child's life was at risk, even if they thought it was a
bad flu type symptom I would be calling my doctor or 911

....I am a God fearing man ....and I don't believe that its God's will to let your child die...:nuts:
 

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l...Where would morality come from?
I thought about it and have (somewhat) changed my mind.

If you are Christian, you may indeed get some of your morality from your religion.

There is no secular reason, I can think of to:
  • Hate gays.
  • Believe that your children are born evil (depends upon sect).
  • Believe it is a good thing to use fear (think hell) to teach your children something is a fact without a good reason to believe it is even true.
In my secular world view I would call these immoral, I will think of more later.
 

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No I am not being intellectually dishonest. Provide an argument that superstitious baggage is needed to make people charitable. If I am wrong I will admit it, but I do not believe so.

It is not needed... nor have I ever stated it was. My statement was that more charity, cures and hospitals have been built directly due to belief... then those that do not believe. This is not to say that those that do not believe -are not charitable... it is to say -they are not as charitable throughout history as those that believe. Advertised disbelief is a fairly new phenomenon... as is the charitable side of those that disbelieve.

Whenever I say “Christians believe…” I get corrected. The fact that there are hundreds of sects all with varying beliefs should worry you. SO, some Christians believe that “belief” is important. The only way to avoid hell is to believe. It does not matter how good a person you are if you are an atheist, to hell you go (and deservedly so).



To these Christians I say: “the lead story in this post is of a Christian who believes. No reservations, he has likely read the bible and believes more than you. If you would take your child to a secular doctor rather than trust god, to hell you will go as well.”

All believing in a single God. Your problem is not with the belief in God... it is with mans interpretation and actions within their beliefs. This is why I stated that you are picking and choosing from 3000 years of history... while ignoring and outright denying the overwhelming good that has come to be throughout history... the world over.

Does the charitable work performed by Hamas indicate that fundamentalist Islam is also desirable?

Yes ! -again, it is mans interpretation and actions that you point to... not the teachings.



Your rights/freedom comes from the constitution. Morality comes from society and evolution.

If you disagree please define freedom and morality (the answer you disagree with) and explain how the bible reflects our cultures secular moralities/freedom.
That's the secular trigger. It is the redefinition by the judicial means... that has brought us to absolutely disagree in what Liberty and Freedom means.

Your secular moralities are based upon morality in the religious sense... and are evident within the preamble of the Constitution. The Blessings of Liberty. (The quality or state of being free) Both Liberty and freedom (natural rights) are granted to us by God... not by man. A granting by God can not be taken away... but, a redefining of the definition by men... removes God and makes the state the granter of both... and the denier of both. THIS is why religion is so important. To get a better understanding of our forefathers views and importance of belief in Gods word as bases for the founding laws of our great nation, you must look toward the amendments and the articles written by the drafters and signers, of the Constitution. Articles such as "Liberty or Death" and "The Rights of Man" and "the Declaration of Independents"... Laws are made by man for the express reason to protect society's God given freedoms and liberty (Natural law). Secularism has been implemented in lue of natural rights granted by God... for the purpose and ability to deny those rights.

Morality is a religious concept... If there is no-one or nothing to hold you to moral guild lines... morals mean nothing -as they are interchangeable from person to person and society to society. There is only one guild line to morality... Gods rules. -As they can not be taken away or changed.
 

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I thought about it and have (somewhat) changed my mind.

If you are Christian, you may indeed get some of your morality from your religion.

There is no secular reason, I can think of to:
  • Hate gays.
  • Believe that your children are born evil (depends upon sect).
  • Believe it is a good thing to use fear (think hell) to teach your children something is a fact without a good reason to believe it is even true.
In my secular world view I would call these immoral, I will think of more later.
Again... these are the actions of men... and not religion or God.
 

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That's the secular trigger. It is the redefinition by the judicial means... that has brought us to absolutely disagree in what Liberty and Freedom means.
I don’t know that we disagree; I would agree to go by the definition.

Your secular moralities are based upon morality in the religious sense...
Absolutely not. Your interpretation of the bible is based on secular morality, reasoning and science. Otherwise the bible would be taken as literally the word and instruction of god. You would not even pickup sticks on Sunday, you would have slaves and you would beat your unruly kids to death. You would no doubt keep your kids at home and pray for them instead of seeking medical help.

Again... these are the actions of men... and not religion or God.
Yes, these are the actions on man. The reason why is religion.
• Hate gays.
• Believe that your children are born evil (depends upon sect).
• Believe it is a good thing to use fear (think hell) to teach your children something is a fact without a good reason to believe it is even true.

There are likely many atheists that are bigots. But they are not bigots because they do not believe sufficient evidence exists to believe in god. There are many theists, I know quite a few; who are bigoted against gays because they believe it is an act against god. That is kind of like a religious thing.

As for believing your children are born evil, again, religion.
I have had friends try to help me understand that I would go to hell if I did not change my beliefs. They were motivated by…


On this last one, I am sure I (and other atheists) have been guilty. I try to teach my kids the facts as I see them. I am sure I am wrong, a lot. I also have told my kids that I do not know all (not very much in fact).

Question all, accept nothing as unquestionable. The sorry part is my daughter is very religious. I do not speak against it except in discussions she wants to have. I have even gone to church with her. Although I must confess I could not help but provide a critique following a mass that did not go over well.
 

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Absolutely not. Your interpretation of the bible is based on secular morality, reasoning and science. Otherwise the bible would be taken as literally the word and instruction of god. You would not even pickup sticks on Sunday, you would have slaves and you would beat your unruly kids to death. You would no doubt keep your kids at home and pray for them instead of seeking medical help.
No... that is your interpretation -from a perspective of secularism. If we are to be lumped in to following our prescribed ideologies to the tee... then you must be lumped with Josef Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung and any other secularist's or atheists... who butchered more human life -than all the religious crackpots throughout history. We believers, believe we must atone for our immoral acts... who do you have to atone to ?

I am imperfect. But... my morals are still based upon religious teachings of Gods laws... and so are yours. -After all... your morality did not come from a tree or a rock or reason and science. Reason is subjective to the individual... and therefore, can just as easily be argued for evil as for good... as it is used for both good and evil. It is sheer nonsense for those espousing the virtues of secularism... to espouse "reason" as only being capable of producing good... and therefore reason is attributed as moral guidance of society.

As to science... Science can neither prove or disprove the existence of God. You are more certain that God does not exsist... -that everything, all existence -came about by sheer chance and accident... then I am -God does. I -at least have questions about the injustice in the world God has created and why... but not you... you are certian that you know... even though what you know... is unprovable. In this sense, we are both able to claim "faith" as guidance and reason. We believers... are at least honest in our claims of faith.


Lets start with the 10 commandments... as this is the basis of all morality as we know it in this country... including your own.

1. You shall have no other gods before me.

2. You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

3. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5. Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6. You shall not murder.

7. You shall not commit adultery.

8. You shall not steal.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

How many do you follow ? How many are the basis of laws and morals adhered to by all Americans... and society ? Don't forget... these were written far before this country existed... yet, they have relevance.
 

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I'll have to get to the rest of your thoughts, tomorrow.

As always, brother... Big time respect for your intellect. :cheers:

Frankie.
 

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No... that is your interpretation -from a perspective of secularism. If we are to be lumped in to following our prescribed ideologies to the tee... then you must be lumped with Josef Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung and any other secularist's or atheists... who butchered more human life -than all the religious crackpots throughout history. We believers, believe we must atone for our immoral acts... who do you have to atone to ? .
First you are correct, I should not lump you in with Christians that base their belief on the bible. If one (not necessary you) did believe the bible was the inspired word and instruction of god then that individual would have to reconcile why god’s morals are not the same as (inferior to) the secular morals adopted by society.

Secondly, I will tell you my secular perspective:
Theists have not presented sufficient evidence (or any at all) that would justify a belief in god. My atheism is based upon my inability to believe something with no evidence.

My ideology includes questioning assumptions and authority. Stalin was a dictator what he said was law. Mao Tse-Tung was a god to his people, what he said was law. The problem with these régimes was that they were just like religions.

I am imperfect. But... my morals are still based upon religious teachings of Gods laws... and so are yours. -After all... your morality did not come from a tree or a rock or reason and science. Reason is subjective to the individual... and therefore, can just as easily be argued for evil as for good... as it is used for both good and evil. It is sheer nonsense for those espousing the virtues of secularism... to espouse "reason" as only being capable of producing good... and therefore reason is attributed as moral guidance of society.
I would be curious of which teachings you are referring to. If it is the bible, I have a few quotes I can post to suggest otherwise.

Morality is a combination of an inherited disposition and a social construct.

I looked up reason, if you accept a definition of “reason” as explanations of cause and effect then reason by itself is useless as false assumptions are not excluded. If one had access to all of the facts and used flawless logic then the conclusions would be neither good or evil.

As to science... Science can neither prove or disprove the existence of God.
Science cannot prove the existance of any god, sprit, ghost, unicorn, magic, invisible tea pots or flying spaghetti monsters.

However, once you write down what your god is, says or does then that record is subject to the scientific method. Science can certainly say what is false.

You are more certain that God does not exsist... -that everything, all existence -came about by sheer chance and accident... then I am -God does. I -at least have questions about the injustice in the world God has created and why... but not you... you are certain that you know...
I am certain the god of the old testimate does not exist. I base this conclusion on the literal text and claims it makes that are in direct variance to the evidence.
If you want to propose another god…

As for everthing being sheer chance or an accident I would dissagree. Probability does appear to have a place in explaining natural phenomena but I do not pretent to know how or why.

even though what you know... is unprovable. In this sense, we are both able to claim "faith" as guidance and reason. We believers... are at least honest in our claims of faith. .
Science cannot prove something is true. It can and does prove things as false. I include your bible in this category.

I have no faith atleast I try not to. Science is demonstratable.

Lets start with the 10 commandments... as this is the basis of all morality as we know it in this country... including your own.

1. ...no other gods ...
2. ...no carved image, ..
3. ...not take the name of the Lord your God in vain...
4. Remember the Sabbath day...
No morality so far.

5. Honor your father and your mother...
Not if they are a child abusing drunk.

6. You shall not murder. .
Except in a whole bunch of examples like protection of your life or family.

7. You shall not commit adultery. .
This would be a civil issue, between you and your spouse.

8. You shall not steal. .
I am sure there are exceptions, but in general a good rule.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. .
I am sure there are exceptions, but in general a good rule.

10. ...not covet your neighbor’s ....
Only religion would have problems with thought crimes.

How many do you follow ? .
As written, none. Morality is not as simple as a one liner.

How many are the basis of laws and morals adhered to by all Americans... and society ?
None,
1-4 = 0 moral content
5 = good advice at best.
6 = US law allows for varying degrees of “murder” from manslaughter to premeditated. Also murder to protect oneself, family or nation (war) can be allowed and applauded.
7 = I do not know, is there a state where cheating on a spouse in a crime?
8 = one out of 10 is a failure (10 percent).
9 = slander is civil infraction at best
10 = Only religion would have problems with thought crimes.
Again, our laws are based upon secular morals.
 

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Alright, brother... we are all over the map on this one. I will take the blame for that direction.

The subjects -before I took us a sway, was -the world would be better off without religion -and morality/man reasoning -as we know it, comes from religion and is not part of Liberty and Freedom or the founding of our Constitution.

Here's one... America's Founding fathers wrote in the Declaration of Independence ...that we are endowed "by our Creator" with certain inalienable rights. Rights depend upon a moral source... a rights giver.

The Liberty bell is inscribed with a Hebrew quote from the bible (Hebrew from Leviticus 25:10: "Proclaim liberty throughout all the land to the inhabitants."). I do not believe you would find a better instance then that.

As to religion and (for us) the link to morality and God himself... I can only say that, for us... there has to be a God. Without God... there is no measurement of good or evil. It would all be subjective to the individual and the society... differing as they are. This does not mean that an Atheist can not be a good person... or a believer can not be a bad one. I am simply stating that unless there is a moral authority- an immovable measuring stick -greater then you or I... right and wrong or no more objective then grotesque or beautiful. If there is no God... there is no purpose to life... and we are no better or different then a grain of sand. We are noting but cyborgs... no free will. Our chemical makeup... does not grant free will, but -a creator does. We are more then simply birth, pain and then death... followed by oblivion. I refuse to believe that Stalin and Mother Teresa served the same purpose and end in the grand scheme of things. That their end... amounts to the same. If that be the case... what reason is there for morality to exist ?

As to science's "disproof equaling proof" (that is what it amounts to... if not faith) -Without God, there are no inalienable rights. Evolution grants no rights. Molecules grant no rights. Energy has no concern over mans Morality... and Secularism's purpose is to replace Gods morality with mans objective and movable reasoning... as it possess no immovable definition.
 

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Alright, brother... we are all over the map on this one. I will take the blame for that direction.

The subjects -before I took us a sway, was -the world would be better off without religion/man reasoning -and morality as we know it, comes from religion and is not part of Liberty and Freedom or the founding of our Constitution.

Here's one... America's Founding fathers wrote in the Declaration of Independence ...that we are endowed "by our Creator" with certain inalienable rights. Rights depend upon a moral source, a rights giver.

The Liberty bell is inscribed with a Hebrew quote from the bible. I do not believe you would find a better instance then that.

As to religion and (for us) the link to morality and God himself... I can only say that, for us... there has to be a God. Without God... there is no measurement of good or evil. It would all be subjective to the individual and the society... differing as they are. This does not mean that an Atheist can not be a good person... or a believer can not be a bad one. I am simply stating that unless there is a moral authority- an immovable measuring stick -greater then you or I... right and wrong or no more objective then grotesque or beautiful. If there is no God... there is no purpose to life... and we are no better or different then a grain of sand. We are noting but cyborgs... no free will. Our chemical makeup... does not grant free will, but -a creator does. We are more then simply birth, pain and then death... followed by oblivion. I refuse to believe that Stalin and Mother Teresa served the same purpose and end in the grand scheme of things. That their end... amounts to the same. If that be the case... what reason is there for morality to exist ?

As to science's "disproof equaling proof" (that is what it amounts to... if not faith) -Without God, there are no inalienable rights. Evolution grants no rights. Molecules grant no rights. Energy has no concern over mans Morality... and Secularism's purpose is to replace Gods morality with mans objective and movable reasoning... as it possess no immovable definition.
:laughing: Good Lord, give it up. You should know by now that the atheist religion is the only right one..

:laughing: :crazy:
 

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For me... it's not about trying to change anybody's mind or even getting them to accept an ideology. It's about defending our right to believe... and clarity. Secularism (to me) is the greatest threat to an individuals freedom. The greatest threat to liberty. The greatest threat to our country.

This debate... with an opponent that is well versed in his belief -and methodical in his answer... is not about winning or losing. It is about clearing up misinformation. I, for one... am appreciative of the opportunity to debate a man with a pure and honorable intention... especially in his deliverance of his side.

:cheers:
 
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