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Discussion Starter #1
getting your C-4 to run 11s

http://members.rogers.com/roguevette/

how do you install a 454-502 in a C-4

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=151

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=741

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9930

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=82

if you put a bbc with aluminum heads, intake and water pump in , in place of the standard iron small block you only gain about 50-70 lbs, not enough differance to cause any problems at all, , I have worked on several of these swaps now and Im in the process of getting ready to do another one,heres whats needed
steering rack mounts cut and rewelded 3/4"-1" farther forward (that of course means the power steering pump lines/steering shaft, need to be extended 3/4" also)

small notch (starting at rear and going 3" forward from rear edge X 3/4"deep X 5" wide works well in rear top surface of (K) frame cross member to clear damper and pulley)(if you use an internally ballanced big block with the 6.75" dia. damper you can most likely skip the notch but with the 8" dia damper its necessary, and some oil pans will also require the back 1 1/2 of the (K) frame to be notched at an angle slopeing to the rear to clear them so youll probablly need the notch of some kind anyway)(and yes before you ask you could shim/modify the motor mounts up to get the clearance, but that would slightly raise the weight center and slightly effect the handleing, and that also makes the windshield motor and distributor clearance a bigger problem)

air conditioner shrouding fiber glass on pass side foot well around the air conditioning on the firewall needs to be modifyed for clearance, (the fiber glass cover from a LT5 makes this easy)(evaporator houseing cover)

1971 bbc vette exhaust manifolds (or custom headers) and all brakets/pulleys (mods needed here)
(see the post on building your own headers)
oil pan needs to be only 7.5" deep max

3" hood scoop unless you run a low rise intake and carb or a low height efi system

for a step by step instructions with pictures get a copy of the august 1998 vette magizine article( starts on page 34)it helped quite a bit the first time

otherwise its almost a drop in deal, but keep in mind that youll need a bigger radiator, the trans will not last to long with that amount of torque and it may not pass emission testing and a small size starter is needed, and your windshield wiper motor needs to be replaced with a much smaller one,(I don,t remember where we got them but alittle measureing and a trip to the salvage yard took care of that problem, and no tall valve covers don,t work well!

btw install the short block then add the heads with it in the car its FAR EASIER THAT WAY than trying to install the long block

BTW the earlier cars like the 1984-86 (Im not sure what years exactly)dont have the heavier forward frame braceing above the stearing rack that makes this swap more difficult to do! I have worked on this swap on the 84, 85, and 86 cars so I know they work fine, the later cars like the 1992 with the heivier forward frame braces above the stearing rack look like they will be more dificult but still do-able with some extra work, btw theres a guy at ARIZONA SPEED AND MARINE that has one you might want to talk to .just a few points
an all aluminum bbc WEIGHS LESS THAN AN IRON SMALL BLOCK so the HANDLING IMPROVES
an aluminum head, intake and water pump bring a bbc engines weight to within 70 lbs of the stock iron small block, so handling is almost unchanged

any un-supercharged small block not useing nitrous or some other power adder that makes over 550 hp is highly likely to be at least somewhat unstreetable as a daily driver and your not likely to build a small block that makes "764 HP & 695 lb/ft at the flywheel" likely costs as much or more than a big block makeing similar power, look, good engine choice
_______

heres a few pictures



http://vettextc.jiminees.com/jeff/C4_BBC/

it will of course depend on the engine combo you chose , and traction is usually a problem but low 12 second to mid 11 seconds is not at all hard for the cars Ive worked on. now you could build a kick butt engine and get into the 10s with ease but at that hp level the rear suspension and rear end itself tends to need work! the strong point here is that unlike a high hp sbc engine with nitrous and a huge cam, these cars are relitively easy to drive as daily drivers and the passing power with just part throttle is necessary to feel to be believed. plus the viper guys get really upset when you pull next to them at 50mph and pull away like they have a dead cylinder with the better chevy bbc engine combos, but you really are better off with aluminum heads/water pump and intake. btw getting a kick butt bbc is very easy, and far cheaper than a viper engine. btw the 700r4 trans or the manual trans that comes in the corvettes won,t handle a 550hp plus engine for long, but the 4L80E OVERDRIVE automatic TRANSMISSION chevy installs in the larger trucks can be used (EXPENSIVE BUT THATS WHAT I BOUGHT FOR MY FUTURE SWAP)




http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/Hoover/top.html

http://shop.theengineshop.com/dr/v2/ec_MAIN.Entry16?SP=10024&PN=29&xid=42186&V1=30014126&V2=30014126&V3=1&V5=11000185&V4=10&S1=&S2=&S3=&S4=&S5=&DSP=0&CUR=840&PGRP=0&CACHE_ID=0


keep in mind the cost versus performance ratio, a nice C-4 vette can be purchased for $6000-$20,000 add that $9000-$15,000 BBC drivetrain and youll have a car that kicks 99% of the cars on the roads butts (INCLUDEING MOST VIPERS) for about $16,000-$35,000

the rear ends hold up fairly well untill you use slicks, street tires won,t normally get enough traction to break things unless you use nitrous
both the 4 plus 3 manual and the 700r4 trans will work for awhile especially if your not trying 3000rpm launches all the time, the 700r4 trans can be built fairly tough but if your intent is to get 10 second 1/4 mile drag times then no! youll need to upgrade the trans to a 4L80E or TH400 with a serious big block or one of the sturdier manual transmissions
heres a few links

http://www.peachstatechevelles.com/muncieid.html

http://www.4speeds.com/muncie2.htm

http://www.yearone.com/updatedsinglepages/Id_info/muncie.htm

http://www.5speeds.com/kit.htm

http://www.drivetrain.com/saginaw3_4sp.html

http://members.rogers.com/mlvd/muncie_rebuild.htm

http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/4l80.htm



if your really looking for 600hp and you have a lot of spare change , drop in one of these 540-632 displacement engines, and run mid 10s with some suspension/tires and tuneing and a few mods like moving the battery to the trunk area and swapping to a light weight set of seats , adding a roll cage,ETC.

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

http://www.theengineshop.com/engine6.shtml

http://www.theengineshop.com/engine3.shtml

http://www.diabolicalperformance.com/diabolical540.html



http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/Sneak/Previews.html

almost anything can be done with a little care and thought! now something like that under the hood with a set of this injection would look neat

 

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I recently looked at two vettes at E-town with big blocks. Both were professionally done and claimed to be street cars, but were more ALL OUT RACE CARS, and both went in the 8s with huge shots of nitrous onto of 600+ CI motors.

THe way they did the install was quite slick and utilized front motor plates, that basically required no moving of stock steering rack, and basically mounted the plate to the two parts of the frame that hump up in the front using brackets welded to them, and bolted to the motor plate. No need for motor mounts etc. Then cause the plate was there, they removed the front upper brace, cause the motor plate did basically the same thing.

Now I have thought about this for a while now and have come to my own conclusions.

1. If you do it, you might as well go all out and put in a motor that is 500+ CI, otherwise you might has well just save yourself alot of time and money and build a very good sbc, as most 400+ inch sbc will run with any <500 CI big block and sometimes better => ask me how I know. ;)

2. If you do elect to go 500+ CI, you must then consider trying to get it to the road, which is the next HUGE task. Yeah the stock suspension will take some abuse, but NOT from a 500+ inch motor with slicks. Trust me on this. So then you have to have some build you a solid axle setup, 4 link, and you end up with a sheet metal rear section and an additional 5k+ bill for that work. And you end up with a basic race car that you will seldom enjoy on the road. But will probably run mid 9s, or something is seriously messed up.

My conclusions on this are: if you want a screamer of a motor, build a very good sbc with good components, and you will have 1/2 the headache, still might have to work on traction, and will be pushing the rear to the limits, but it will take the abuse. Mine has seen easily over 150 passes with year with some minor breaks, but it been in there for several years of abuse. So I see no real need to do a BB, unless your fully committed to doing the rest and into drag racing BIGTIME. You can accomplish 10s and even high 9s n/a with a great built sbc, which is just crazy fast for a street car.:thumbsup:
 

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Ski are you running a IDS on your car? Dana 44 maybe?
If that is what you have how has it done with the power you are putting down? I've see your videos and that thing launches HARD.
 

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Yeah I run the D44.

I ran it like that with my 406 that pulled just as brutal 60' times, the 434 is a little better now on average, but its seen its share of abuse.

I recently put a spool in it, which eliminated all the weak points.

Recently I had broken one 1/2 shaft, and one spindle. But these were bare bones stock units that I beat the piss out of for the past 5 year, and have god only knows how many runs on them. I put stock replacements back in, as I want to leave them the weak link.

I am sure that the IRS is costing us at least .3sec on our ETs. The IRS is NOT very condusive to power transfer, cause its like a universal/swivel on a ratchet...as soon as you get an angle involved, you loose power. These rears are no different. Wanna pick up some serious power next time on a dyno - have them pull your rear downward, till the 1/2 shafts are dead nuts sticking out the sides of the differential ;) You can change it by an EASY 30-40 hp if you play with that alone. :cheers:
 

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Discussion Starter #10
just for your info ,I plan on installing a DANA 60 solid (standard.. non-irs) rear in a 4.11 ratio and a 4L80E trans with a 3500 stall converter speed to replace the irs and 700r4 in there now simply because Im constantly replacing rear suspension parts now at the current 383 hp levels
 

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raidmagic said:
I am sure that the IRS is costing us at least .3sec on our ETs.


Any reason why you haven't or won't change to a straight axle?
Timing I suppose and the fact I really hate to cut the car up. I have been able to get away with pretty much with minimal breakage so it wasn't/isn't a major concern right now.

The fact that its costing me ET is more of a concern than breakage here and there with the IRS.

I am talking to a very well known suspension guy on the east coast that is working on a bolt in solid axle, and if he does it, it will work better than the original IRS, which actually works pretty good with some minor tweaks.

Grumpy, how are you breaking stuff on a regular basis by the way you describe it, and we have our 406s, 434s, and Jims 383 (running [email protected]+ nearly every weekend) with no breaking? Sounds like something is not put together right or is not working as it should.:(
 

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Discussion Starter #12
a nearly stock rear suspension in the current 1985 corvette, running slicks, plus a 200 hp shot of nitrous in the 383 that already makes close to 475 hp before the nitrous, that is my problem, the U joints are what fail usually
and YEAH..

Im well AWARE HOW i CAN FIX IT BUT ITS JUST NOT WORTH THE EXPENCE ON THE OLD IRS AT THIS POINT, SINCE i FULLY INTEND TO INSTALL A 600HP PLUS 496-540 SIZE BIG BLOCK AND RUN NITROUS WHICH WILL REQUIRE THE SOLID DANA 60 REAR, SO I AM WAITING TO DO THAT WHOLE SWAP AFTER THE GARAGE IM BUILDING GETS COMPLETED
 

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That nitrous is very hard on stuff. I can see why your having problems now.

My buddy Jeb has run his IRS down into the bottom 9s with nitrous on cyroed parts, but I think ones luck would be marginal at best at those levels with a IRS.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
it should be obvious that the stock transmission won,t hold up forever under double or triple the torque loads with a bbc engine installed, so this might help (i found this great write up on the 4l80e trans swap over on the crossfire vette site) THANKS JOBY!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.joby.se/corvette/mods/2004-12-26_4l80/
 

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Discussion Starter #15
THE BIG BLOCK/C4 SWAP JUST GOT EASIER, THESE GUYS HAVE AN ADAPTER KIT THAT ALLOWS YOU TO INSTALL A 4l80e AND USE THE ORRIGINAL DRIVE SHAFT, NO COMPUTER,AND THE STOCK c-BEAM THE ADAPTER AND THE HARDENED 4L80E OUTPUT SHAFT ARE SOLD AS A KIT FOR ABOUT $750, THE
4l80E trans set up for full manual control with that kit and all the best internal parts will cost in the $4500-$5300 range

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L80E.htm

"4L80E in C4 Corvette Adapter (1984 - 1996). Swap your 700R4 / 4L60E transmission to the much stronger 4L80E transmission with our new double strength case hardened output shaft and adapter kit. At this time we have in development an adapter kit for the C4 Corvette to replace your 700R4 / 4L60E transmission with the much stronger 4L80E transmission. This 4L80E transmission will be the same length as your 700R4 / 4L60E transmission making it possible to reuse your existing 27 spline driveshaft and C-beam. This is the worlds first 700R4 / 4L60E to 4L80E swap direct replacement. All that needs to be changed on the 4L80E transmission is the tail housing and output shaft. The full manual shift model works without a computer.'




BIGGER
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/HPIM1215.JPG[/IMG]



BIGGER
http://www.transmissioncenter.net/HPIM1242.JPG

THIS GOES A long way TOWARDS REMOVING MUCH OF THE POTENTIAL PROBLEMS THE WEAK STOCK 700r4 TRANS POSSED


add one of these aluminum big blocks and LOOSE 100LBS off the front end compared to a small block, and more than double the power, even with the 4L80E the car will weight about the same but the center of gravity will be lower and further back
http://www.theengineshop.com/pdfs/merlin.pdf

you can use a computer to control the trans

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/fram...60E_4L80E.html

http://www.compushift.com/

http://www.highperformancecars.com/crosley/transize.htm

http://www.levelten.com/store/gm/ite...8000_trans.htm

http://www.duramax.bizhosting.com/My...on_control.htm

BUT the 4L80E can BE converted TO FULL MANUAL CONTROL

http://www.drivetrain.com/transgoshiftkits.html

http://www.eatmyshifts.com/combo_kits.htm

http://www.txchange.com/tgp.htm

http://www.automatictransmission.com...sp?NewsId=8611


THESE THREADs may give you some info

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/foru...ead.php?t=1756


http://www.joby.se/corvette/mods/2004-12-26_4l80/

http://www.joby.se/corvette/mods//2001-0X11_diff/
 

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grumpyvette said:
SO I AM WAITING TO DO THAT WHOLE SWAP AFTER THE GARAGE IM BUILDING GETS COMPLETED
:D ... More garage pics Grump!!! I love that place of yours ... go to bed a couple times a week dreaming about having one of my own
 

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Discussion Starter #17
heres some pictures of my garage project I posted before if you missed them on the other thread, Im sorry no new pictures yet, as my digital cameras not working currently but I will post when the garage gets closer to completeion even if I need to buy a new camera









well finally got the stucco


the lift


the bathroom installed in my new garage so Im advancing slowly

I got all of the ELECTRIC in now, Ill post more pictures as the work progresses



these lower three pictures (below)were taken The first day we had electric as we were stuffing stuff in out of the rain







 

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11's Huh

WELL FIRST OF ALL THAT IS ONE NICE GARAGE, GREAT JOB. CONGRATS:cheers: ....ABOUT THE 11'S. A TPI MOTOR WITH A SUPERCHARGER AND SOME TIRES IS OBVIOUS, SO IS A 383 WITH TIRES. BUT IF FUNDS ARE LIMITED, SOMEONE COULD ALWAYS START WITH THE BOLT-ONS AND MODS THEY WOULD NEED LATER, MSD, BIGGER INTAKE, EXHAUST,PULLEYS, DRAG RADIALS, REAR SHOCKS, ETC. I AM CURRENTLY RUNNING 12.7'S WITH THAT. THEN AFTER ALL THAT MAYBE CAM, HEADWORK, 75 SHOT ....SHOULD PUT A TPI JUST INSIDE THE 11'S..
 

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ski_dwn_it said:
I am sure that the IRS is costing us at least .3sec on our ETs. The IRS is NOT very condusive to power transfer, cause its like a universal/swivel on a ratchet...as soon as you get an angle involved, you loose power. These rears are no different. Wanna pick up some serious power next time on a dyno - have them pull your rear downward, till the 1/2 shafts are dead nuts sticking out the sides of the differential ;) You can change it by an EASY 30-40 hp if you play with that alone. :cheers:
Lots of wheel hop, right?
I see lots of FWD vehicles with drivetrain hop. I can only imagine it being detrimental to launches.
Do you strap your axle links in any way to limit the movement?
The track cars with the fourlink and spools, sans suspension,
seem to launch the best.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I was asked "why would you go thru the effort to swap to a BBC vs a SBC
after all. you can make 400 plus hp with a SBC?"
well if I was only after 400 hp Id agree
heres a few advantages the BBC has...
theres EXCEPTIONS but generally.....
the BIG BLOCK HAS
LARGE VALVES=more flow at any lift
MORE EFFICIENT PORTS=more total flow per port
SPLAYED VALVES= better low lift flow/better exhast flow
LESS CYLINDER WALL SHOUDING=due to slightly larger bore on average
LONGER RODS= MORE HIGH RPM DWELL if STROKES EQUAL
LARGER DIA CAM=LESS stress on lifter
LARGER SPRINGS=less pressure needed in some cases
STRONGER BLOCK,=Less distortion under higher pressures
LARGER DIA MAIN CAP BOLTS=STRONGER
MUCH LARGER DISPLACEMENT POTENTIAL.--OBVIOUS
WIDER BORE CENTERS= better cooling
LARGER DIA. BEARINGS=more load capacity
STRONGER PUSH RODS=SBC generally 5/16", BBC 3/8 or 7/16"
EXHAUST PORTS equally spaced=better cooling

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=151

getting 500hp from your average 350,383 sbc takes a good deal more effort than from a 427-454BBC
ONCE you exceed about 600hp the BBC combo tends to be CHEAPER at any hp level

http://www.ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html

http://www.ultrastreet.net/

AND YEAH! Im fully aware that the SBC can easily have a larger valve IN RELATION to cylinder displacement
but theres PLENTY of BBC heads flowing close to or even well in excess of 400cfm, a few over 500cfm and darn few SBC heads flowing over 310-320 cfm

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#BBChevy

another way to look at this, the most comon stroker for a SBC is a 383, for a BBC its a 496, if each makes 1.25 hp per cubic inch the 383 makes 480hp
the 496 will make 620hp
youll have a hard time making 600hp from a SBC with no power adders for 7K like this crate engine

http://www.dougherbert.com/dhp496chevybbstroker-p-25850.html?cPath=614_615

or 900HP for 11K
http://www.ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html

like this 620BBC
 
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