Corvette Forum : DigitalCorvettes.com Corvette Forums banner

1 - 9 of 9 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,106 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I just got my 3rd recall on my 2 year old cadillac cts.

I know it's not technically a recall-- but if they want me to come in and change something with them paying for-- It's a matter of semantics..

Quote:
This notice is sent to inform you that GM is conducting a Customer Satisfaction Program that affects 2009 model year Cadillac CTS vehicles equipped with a V6 engine.
Your vehicle was designed and built to meet GM's high standards for quality and reliability. However, we have determined that under certain driving conditions, and with extended oil change intervals, the timing chain could wear prematurely and cause the illumination of the Service Engine Soon light. Timing chain wear can be affected by the age of the engine oil and driving conditions.

What We Will Do:To ensure that your vehicle will not experience this condition, your Cadillac dealer will change the calibration of the engine control module, including the engine oil life monitor, which in most cases will recommend more frequent oil changes. This service will be performed for you at no charge until February 28, 2013.

What You Should Do: To limit any possible inconvenience, we recommend that you contact your Cadillac dealer as soon as possible to schedule an appointment for this repair.

If you have any questions or need any assistance, just contact your dealer or the Cadillac Customer Assistance Center at 1.866.982.2339

We sincerely regret any inconvenience or concern that this situation may cause you. We want you to know that we will do our best, throughout your ownership experience, to ensure that your Cadillac CTS provides you with many miles of enjoyable driving.

Jim Moloney
General Director - Customer & Relationship Services

End quote





I need some help walking through this so I'm sure I have my info and knowledge level straight before I put on my Asshole hat or join into the class action suit brewing. I'll probably show my ignorance here but that's OK.. sometimes it's about getting to the right answer not proving I'm a genius.

The issue at hand is many of the 2008-2009 3.6 engines are experiencing timing chain issues.

1--GM's 2007-2009 HFV6 is found in the 2007-2009 GMC Acadia, Saturn Outlook, Cadillac CTS, Cadillac STS & Cadillac SRX as well as the 2009 Buick Enclave & Chevrolet Traverse. Only the Cadillac applications of GM's HFV6 engines get synthetic oil installed at the factory; all other non-Cadillac applications of the HFV6 engine get traditional mineral oil. With this in mind, it would appear that the use of synthetic oil in Cadillac applications provides nothing in the way of improved lubrication (vs. mineral oil) for the timing chain(s). It appears now that the OLM parameters in HFV6-equipped Cadillacs will more closely follow (duplicate?) the parameters set out for GM's non-Cadillac HFV6-equipped vehicles using mineral oil.

Further to help ensure that the potential for a timing chain show-stopping issue is not made greater during the warranty period for reasons of a less-than-ideal oil condition (or an oil level that's less-than-ideal), the OLM parameters are revised to demand/encourage much more frequent oil changes.. at, of course, the cost of the customer (in the US).

As I know it timing chain stretch is caused by material failure or "normal" wear over a period of time. Material failure is due to construction or the fatigue substandard material. I realize this can increase with heat and other environmental factors.

Wear can increase by reduced viscosity, reduced clearances, and contaminants in the oil.

1-- My ??

I understand maybe they put the timing chain sensors too rigid in the tolerances.. But why the change in OLM to reduce the time between changes? If the industry standard for synthetics is 8-12K miles before a reduction in viscosity what does changing the oil earlier help? Ford isn't wanting me to change the oil interval on my 09 escape...

So with new parameter set causing the OLM to reduce oil changes to approx 5K miles why would I spend the money on synthetic oils which are designed to last between 8-15K?

The new change parameters have the potential of costing me over $500 more for the expected time of ownership 75K mile.. Yes I bought a Caddy so I should shut up on that "little" expense-- but when added to other "little expenses" they become big ones with this.

2-- From a busines model perspective I understand completely GM's thinking in their issuance of Bulletin 10287. Is has nothing to do with 'Customer Satisfaction' and everything to do with 'Cost Mitigation' for GM.

Warranty timing chain work on 2007-2009 HFV6 engines has cost GM a bundle. Changing ECM programming (i.e. upping the chain stretch threshold for when the Check Engine light is thrown) will have an immediate and huge downward effect on GM's further/future costs for this issue.

With a significantly increased amount of chain stretch now 'tolerated' by way of the re-programmed ECM, the point in time now at which the timing chain will become a show-stopping issue for many (the majority?) of owners of 2008-09 CTS's (i.e. problems of poor engine performance, engine misfire, timing chain breakage and potential for catastrophic engine damage) will more likely materialize shortly after the 5 year powertrain warranty expires. At that point in time of course the customer gets to pay the bill.

GM is denying this-- But they also redesigned the HFV6 engine (the 'LLT' and likely all other HFV6 engines) for model year 2010 effectively addressed the timing chain issue. I'm guessing the overall re-design involved quality improvements to the chain itself (manufacturing and/or material revisions), but more importantly, an improved system for the lubrication of the chain(s).

2-- My ??
If there is nothing wrong with the design or materials in the 2008-9 models why would you redesign it? Aren't profits made when the cost per unit decrease.. Design and modification would drive these costs up-- so that's counter to profit.



Thoughts on the matter?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
25,253 Posts
Time for a trade-in. I recommend upgrading to the CTS-V. :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,106 Posts
Discussion Starter #3

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Cts

I have a 2009 CTS...I thought when I bought this car it would be the best new car yet...I used to trade for new cars every 2 years {"back in the day"}...so far this car has had the following replaced:
1. battery
2. igniton switch/lock
3. seat belt retractor
4. stabilizer bar/line

Now the doors are starting not to unlock when you put it in park...you have to take the fob and push unlock many times...back to the dealer again
I have had Chevys that cost half the money and have never taken them back to the dealer for warr. work...this is another way of getting you to spend $80.00 for an oil change at less intervals
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,823 Posts
I think you are over reacting. To immediately scream lawsuit when they are telling you to come in to have work done, for free, before it becomes a problem (because they identified a problem) is a little off.

I would like for you to show me 1 vehicle currently being made that has had no TSB's or recalls. Not going to happen.

There could very well have been an issue with the supplier of the timing chain, or the design has been shown to not meet expected standards or required standards. So they redesign and change suppliers. The adjustment of stretch tolerance does not mean that it will allow it to stretch past a point of causing decreased performance. I have seen timing chains stretch beyond the acceptable "standard" while still putting out numbers very close to when it was new.

As far as the oil, it may not just be a factor of viscosity- additive package breakdown could also be the problem. There also may be an issue with a percentage of the owners driving their V-6 Caddy like it was a CTS-V or a Vette which we all know affects lubrication life.

Not trying to defend them, just playing devil's advocate. Frivilous lawsuits are a major problem with society today.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,106 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I have a 2009 CTS...I thought when I bought this car it would be the best new car yet...I used to trade for new cars every 2 years {"back in the day"}...so far this car has had the following replaced:
1. battery
2. igniton switch/lock
3. seat belt retractor
4. stabilizer bar/line

Now the doors are starting not to unlock when you put it in park...you have to take the fob and push unlock many times...back to the dealer again
I have had Chevys that cost half the money and have never taken them back to the dealer for warr. work...this is another way of getting you to spend $80.00 for an oil change at less intervals

I've had these recalls/ "customer satisfaction program"-
the windshield washer heater disconnected - was comp'd $100
Passenger seat air bag sensor replaced
Rear callipers replaced
Now the Oil change/timing chain.

Non recalls-- Issue with moon roof not sealing all the way and whistling-- was fixed under warranty.
Got a rattle/flapping noise when I close the door. still can't find the source but they know it's there.

I spoke with a knowledgable person finally at GM just this morning.. I guess they are looking at something called DEXOS certification on oils.
These can be either synthetic or mineral based oils-- and might allow for regular oil to be used as a replacement. Good to know if I am now going to be changing oil at the same mileage I would for regular oils
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
59 Posts
My CTS has been fine

I've got a 2009 too and have had no issues other than two recalls. 1st was timing chain and it's in the shop now with recall number 11029. 11029 is for rear suspension toe link jam nuts and some wax coating used the may allow the nuts to loosen.

I guess when they call me to say it's done tomorrow I'd better ask them to check to make sure thier are not any other recalls since you mention a couple I've not gotten any notices.

Everything else on the car, including sun roof, have been perfect. I was a bit pissed to get the notice about a week after I had it in for the timing chain issue. I would think the dealership already had that information and would have alerted me when it was in. That or the damn service writer didn't check for any other recalls. I think I'll have a little discussion about that when I go and pick up the car. Any opinons on this topic. Anybody know if it's standard practice for dealership to check for all recall isssue when car is in? Or does it vary from shop to shop?

Hope I'm not jinxing myself and the car starts becoming a pain.
 
1 - 9 of 9 Posts
Top