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:smack
 

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nothing in the story offers anything other than hearsay and speculation.
 

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It's a leftism. They have to be in order to be on radio and TV. It's the actors and radio guild... not the AFL CIO. They've spoke of their discontent, many times.

Leftism. Little bit of truth... wrapped up in a lot of lies.
 

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I think this misses the point of the Wisconsin debate. It's not about being anti-union across the board. It's about public employee unions and the dysfunctional dynamics that are involved in their relationship with taxpayers. AFTRA is not a public employee union. Unions who have to negotiate with a profit-making business know there is a limit to the money available. Unions negotiating with politicians representing taxpayers assume there is no end to the money that can be raised from taxpayers. It's an entirely different dynamic, and in my opinion, there should be no unionization for employees who are paid with tax revenue.
 

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I think this misses the point of the Wisconsin debate. It's not about being anti-union across the board. It's about public employee unions and the dysfunctional dynamics that are involved in their relationship with taxpayers. AFTRA is not a public employee union. Unions who have to negotiate with a profit-making business know there is a limit to the money available. Unions negotiating with politicians representing taxpayers assume there is no end to the money that can be raised from taxpayers. It's an entirely different dynamic, and in my opinion, there should be no unionization for employees who are paid with tax revenue.
This, in a nutshell, is it. :agree:
 

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I think this misses the point of the Wisconsin debate. It's not about being anti-union across the board. It's about public employee unions and the dysfunctional dynamics that are involved in their relationship with taxpayers. AFTRA is not a public employee union. Unions who have to negotiate with a profit-making business know there is a limit to the money available. Unions negotiating with politicians representing taxpayers assume there is no end to the money that can be raised from taxpayers. It's an entirely different dynamic, and in my opinion, there should be no unionization for employees who are paid with tax revenue.
:agree: very well said.
 

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Unions negotiating with politicians representing taxpayers assume there is no end to the money that can be raised from taxpayers. It's an entirely different dynamic, and in my opinion, there should be no unionization for employees who are paid with tax revenue.
Your first sentence is also only your opinion, and patently untrue. Many public employee union members (including me) fully understand that our interests are best served by a healthy municipality. "Bleeding them dry" is neither prudent nor productive. Don't presume to tell others what they think. You will nearly always be wrong, as you are here.
 

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Your first sentance is also only your opinion, and patently untrue. Many public employee union members (including me) fully understand that our interests are best served by a healthy municipality. "Bleeding them dry" is neither prudent nor productive. Don't presume to tell others what they think. You will nearly always be wrong, as you are here.
Really??? That angry group of people protesters on the steps of the Capital building in Wisconsin don't seem to hold your same point of view. they seem hellbent on getting what they want regardless of cost to the taxpayers. But I am sure those people are just a "few misguided" union members who deep down only want what's best for the state of Wisconsin and its children.
 

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Really??? That angry group of people protesters on the steps of the Capital building in Wisconsin don't seem to hold your same point of view. they seem hellbent on getting what they want regardless of cost to the taxpayers. But I am sure those people are just a "few misguided" union members who deep down only want what's best for the state of Wisconsin and its children.
and we all know they only care about our children...

and another thing, i would like to know why all these people who are against gov walker even think their opinion should be heard. Not like they are paying WI taxes....oh wait, it isn't their tax dollars and their state's well being at stake....
 

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Sorry - if you want me to climb up on that "all public employee union members are greedy, self-serving leeches on their communities" bandwagon, I'll keep pointing out that you're wrong.
 

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Actually, that's a very good example of what I'm talking about . . . I have been a member of the New York State Police and Firemen's retirement system for nearly 38 years, and I hope to retire in a couple of years. I'm a Tier One member, one of only two left on the job here in Syracuse. Retiring at my current rank (District Chief, equivalent to FDNY's Battalion Chief), my pension will not be anywhere near some of the figures I hear tossed around. Somewhat near half of the figures quoted in your link. Same retiirement system, why the huge disparity? Obviously one of us is doing something wrong. If there are people out there gaming the system (and there quite obviously are), FIX THAT. Just don't paint all of us with the same broad brush.

I'm sure there are plenty of teachers and cops in the same boat, sitting there every night hearing horror stories about firefighters, teachers and cops all being greedy bloodsuckers retiring on huge pensions. It isn't so, and every time I see a post that claims that it is, I will dispute it.
 

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Why do we have to fight then, brother ? You know there is a problem that is turning a majority of the country against you... and you do nothing. If there truly are so many of you horrified by the few... you fight them. Because if we have to... you will end up paying for their greed.
 

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Why do we have to fight then, brother ? You know there is a problem that is turning a majority of the country against you... and you do nothing. If there truly are so many of you horrified by the few... you fight them. Because if we have to... you will end up paying for their greed.
True..
 

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Actually, that's a very good example of what I'm talking about . . . I have been a member of the New York State Police and Firemen's retirement system for nearly 38 years, and I hope to retire in a couple of years. I'm a Tier One member, one of only two left on the job here in Syracuse. Retiring at my current rank (District Chief, equivalent to FDNY's Battalion Chief), my pension will not be anywhere near some of the figures I hear tossed around. Somewhat near half of the figures quoted in your link. Same retiirement system, why the huge disparity? Obviously one of us is doing something wrong. If there are people out there gaming the system (and there quite obviously are), FIX THAT. Just don't paint all of us with the same broad brush.

I'm sure there are plenty of teachers and cops in the same boat, sitting there every night hearing horror stories about firefighters, teachers and cops all being greedy bloodsuckers retiring on huge pensions. It isn't so, and every time I see a post that claims that it is, I will dispute it.

"I will dispute it." Where's your proof? Another member has actually posted a link showing that you are paying benefits & yet you say "I will dispute it." Post up the link that shows the truth! We've seen a very public display (the link) showing pay and benefits, show us evidence supporting why you dispute what's online for the whole world to see. It's easy to say "i dispute it" without any proof!
 

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I could see you trying to dispute what I posted if it was from some non-govt site, but it is the NYFD recruitment site that is listing their pay/benefits. going from 43k to 99k in 5 years and you dont see that as being a little extreme? no wonder you are so adamant about defending your union.

Your base pay is $141k with $20k in benefits, according to your statement that your position is equiv to that FDNY rank.

lets compare FDNY pay to military pay we will use my pay as an example (not counting benefits currently, I have to look up the monetary value of mine):

FDNY 5 years: base pay $76,488
US Army 12 years (E-5): base pay $35,364.
US Army 12 years with my next promotion (E-6): $38,316
*most non-combat arms personnel will fall into the E-5/E-6 range at 12 years, combat arms E6/E7

US Army 20 years Sergeant Major (top enlisted rank) $65,232

Does anyone else see what I am talking about? could you imagine what the fed budget would be if every govt employee was represented by a union?

what exactly warrants a 5 year FDNY to make $10,000 more than a 20 year Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major? It sure as hell is not the responsibility, nor the experience/knowledge....it is the union forcing obscene wages at tax payer expense.
 

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I could see you trying to dispute what I posted if it was from some non-govt site, but it is the NYFD recruitment site that is listing their pay/benefits. going from 43k to 99k in 5 years and you dont see that as being a little extreme? no wonder you are so adamant about defending your union.

Your base pay is $141k with $20k in benefits, according to your statement that your position is equiv to that FDNY rank.

lets compare FDNY pay to military pay we will use my pay as an example (not counting benefits currently, I have to look up the monetary value of mine):

FDNY 5 years: base pay $76,488
US Army 12 years (E-5): base pay $35,364.
US Army 12 years with my next promotion (E-6): $38,316
*most non-combat arms personnel will fall into the E-5/E-6 range at 12 years, combat arms E6/E7

US Army 20 years Sergeant Major (top enlisted rank) $65,232

Does anyone else see what I am talking about? could you imagine what the fed budget would be if every govt employee was represented by a union?

what exactly warrants a 5 year FDNY to make $10,000 more than a 20 year Sergeant Major/Command Sergeant Major? It sure as hell is not the responsibility, nor the experience/knowledge....it is the union forcing obscene wages at tax payer expense.

AMEN!!!:thumbsup:
 

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Apparently there are some reading comprehension issues here. The link that was posted was for the NEW YORK CITY fire department , and clearly said so - and despite what many may think, there are a lot more cities in New York State than just New York City. If you want to base the facts concerning ANY profession in the rest of New York State on the rates and rules of New York City, you are going to be using very bad numbers. The rest of the state follows the majority of the nation on wages, benefits and pensions. New York City is a force unto itself in nearly every area of employment, compensation, benefits and pensions, and NONE OF THE NUMBERS LISTED IN THE TABLE THAT WAS LINKED TO APPLY TO ANY FIREFIGHTER IN NEW YORK STATE OTHER THAN THOSE IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK.

Different fire department, different union, different contract, different rules, different numbers. Now, it is probably unfair for me to expect anyone else to know this . . . but it is also unfair for anyone to imply that I am a liar, or that I don't know my own pension benefits. I do.

It is likewise unfair for anyone to assume that because there are overpaid, over-pensioned teachers (and more specifically administrators) out there that ALL teachers are overpaid and over-pensioned. If anyone thinks this is true, they don't know many teachers.

And while I don't disagree that "cleaning up" any grossly bloated retirement system in any one municipality would benefit all other members and cities, and also improve public perception of that profession . . . the reality is that everything the FDNY gets was arrived at by collective bargaining. No one held a gun to the city's head - after all, the Taylor Law forbids firefighters from striking in New York State. Whether or not collective bargaining for public union employees is an idea whose time has passed is a judgement that public must make. And I believe they are doing so. At least in my town, we will abide by what they decide.

In the meantime, facts are our friends. To make rash statements or form opinions based on bad information does no one any good. And again, all I ask is that you not paint with too broad a brush. We are not all greedy slugs gorging ourselves at the public trough. We recognize there are some that do. This is true in most public sector jobs, and it should be neither tolerated nor encouraged - but I cannot vote on their contracts, or direct their cities not to offer them the packages they have. The taxpayers can and must do that.

Fair discussion based on factual and accurate information is always welcomed.
 
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