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Another point on wepons.

Our country has a bad habit of companies developing high tech weapons and selling them to other countires.

IMHO, that should be stopped.
Imagine if our predator rc jet was unknown to the world.
We could have taken out the Iranian leader and nobody would have known for sure who did it.
We sold our spyplanes to china, missle defence systems, our new microwave raygun hummer is up for sale,

We have micromachines under development the size of butterflies that can fly indoors and kill a human.
But we keep showing it off and putting it up for sale.

You can say thanks for THAT to the one world socialist commie elitists that run the world.....they got a glimpse of the world from outer space, and let it go to their airheads that gee, it's a 'one world afterall' type thing, while it is NOT, and clearly hopefully never WILL be, except unless or course islam cults really DO take over the world.....then we all will die off.....
 

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we have a long tradition of not negotiating with terrorists.
A more accurate statement would be "We have a long tradition of not negotiating with terrorists we don't like."

We supported Ngo Dinh Diem in his undermining of free elections in Vietnam in 1955 in favor supporting the formation of a Republic without elections. We ignore the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, China, and others while holding other countries feet to the fire for similar violations. We supported the Shaw of Iran and ignored the human rights violations there. Same with Egypt.

We ignore domestic problems but give millions to nations to address similar problems.

IMO, we need to focus on our problems, our border security and improvements to our country and stop trying to be the World's babysitter.

:cheers:
 

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well, sometimes you have to choose the lesser of 2 evils. we had supported the mujhadeen against russia, because they were more of a threat to us. there is no real black and white when dealing with such affairs.

if you look at how long and what went on during the occupation of japan and germany, you will find they are very similar to that of iraq. it takes, on average, 9-12 years to win an insurgency war.

it is the shiites that are happy, they are the majority in the country and were oppressed by the few sunnni's in power. people say we went there for oil. if that was the case why didnt we take over the oil facilities and claim them as ours?
 

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We aren't in Iraq because of 9/11. The reason I said that is because the liberal machine said that we Americans are terrorists for freeing the people of Iraq. :crazy:

Basically, Bush wanted a reason to go into Iraq, I don't know why the Bush family has a problem with Iraq but hopefully, now that Saddam was hanged, it's over and that's behind us.:rolleyes:

Personally, I never agreed with us going into Iraq, Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but we went there, and we started something, it is our responsibility and our duty to finish it. We don't want to just pull out and let Iraq become another post-WWI Germany because we all know how that turned out.

I never thought I'd see the day when my wonderful country would be called "terrorist" by one of it's own citizens. It only proves to me that my theory is correct, which is that you should have to EARN your citizenship by serving at least two years in our nations military, but then that would be taking away the freedom of choice which is what made this country so great to begin with.
This is probobly the most rediculas post I have ever read. Caged bird seems to be on the verge of a break down.

I never said we were terrorists...I asked if Grumpyvette was saying that we were.

But now you say "Basically, Bush wanted a reason to go into Iraq, I don't know why the Bush family has a problem with Iraq but hopefully, now that Saddam was hanged, it's over and that's behind us."

I have to ask...in your mind does invading a country just because one of our families has a problem with that country, sound like the USA that we and the world has loved for centuries? Bush has done great harm to the standing of our country in the eyes of the rest of the world. He is a war criminal, by the standards that you just gave. No different than the terrorists that we condemn, no different than any other dictator that has invaded any other soveriegn country for personal gain.

While we are on the topic of the word terrorist...which you find so horrible that the mear implication of the US being labeled one sends you over the edge...you may want to keep in mind that this tactic of war (yes it is a tactic of war) has been used by many countries in the past. In our revolutionary war, we used tactics that were completely against the rules of war at the time, and would have been equaly as appauling then as we find terrorism today. We targeted officers (unheard of at the time). We hid and ambushed the enemy (far from the proper way of meeting on the battlefield face to face). We planted bombs on british ships. We shot and hung loyalist supporters.
In modern times we dropped two atomic bombs...the only country to ever do so...on mostly civilian populations. We had to do this, it saved millions of lives, but was non the less horrible.

War sucks, and if you want it conducted by rules then you better find another occupation. I for one would blow up the women and children of any nation who occupied my country and killed my wife and children. If all I could do was strap on a bomb and hug the nearest guy in that army...you know I would to avenge my family and end the suffering of missing them. If I had lost my wife and children on 911...there would be a large hole in the ground somewhere were Osama Bin Laden had been standing or I would have been shot dead trying.

Rules of war are set by the last victors of war to keep them the victors...unfortunatly history has shown time and time again that those rules are constantly rewritten by the people who come under the thumb of those victors.
 

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A more accurate statement would be "We have a long tradition of not negotiating with terrorists we don't like."

We supported Ngo Dinh Diem in his undermining of free elections in Vietnam in 1955 in favor supporting the formation of a Republic without elections. We ignore the human rights violations in Saudi Arabia, China, and others while holding other countries feet to the fire for similar violations. We supported the Shaw of Iran and ignored the human rights violations there. Same with Egypt.

We ignore domestic problems but give millions to nations to address similar problems.

IMO, we need to focus on our problems, our border security and improvements to our country and stop trying to be the World's babysitter.

:cheers:
X1000:thumbsup:
 

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I never thought I'd see the day when my wonderful country would be called "terrorist" by one of it's own citizens. It only proves to me that my theory is correct, which is that you should have to EARN your citizenship by serving at least two years in our nations military, but then that would be taking away the freedom of choice which is what made this country so great to begin with.

:
Technically,
George Washington was a terrorist, as was our country's sucessful division from England.
History decides if one is a terrorist or not.

Win=martyr
Loose=terrorist.
 

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"I for one would blow up the women and children of any nation who occupied my country and killed my wife and children. If all I could do was strap on a bomb and hug the nearest guy in that army...you know I would to avenge my family and end the suffering of missing them."

gotta say, if i saw you on the street i would have to wreck you, for this personally offends me. we are not over ther to kill iraqi women and children, it is the iraqi's themselves that are blowing each other up. keep in mind, accidents do happen, and they are unavoidable. and typically those accidents are fully justified. for example, you are at a military checkpoint, and a vehicle is coming towards you and ignoring the signs telling the vehicle to slow down and stop. do you (a) let the vehicle come towards you unchallenged and potentially kill you and your friends, or (b) light the vehicle up, potentially saving your life and the life of those around you. I would, have, and would do again, chose (b).
 

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gotta say, if i saw you on the street i would have to wreck you, for this personally offends me. we are not over ther to kill iraqi women and children, it is the iraqi's themselves that are blowing each other up. keep in mind, accidents do happen, and they are unavoidable. and typically those accidents are fully justified. for example, you are at a military checkpoint, and a vehicle is coming towards you and ignoring the signs telling the vehicle to slow down and stop. do you (a) let the vehicle come towards you unchallenged and potentially kill you and your friends, or (b) light the vehicle up, potentially saving your life and the life of those around you. I would, have, and would do again, chose (b).
How many suicide bombings happenned in Iraq in the decades preceeding the US invasion?

Granted, these insurgent cowards attack women & children on purpose and use them as shields. That the US kills innocents along with insurgents is regrettable, but ultimately necessary. And that they dress alike to civillians makes our job over there nearly impossible. That said:

Why didn't they think of this before?

Oh. Right. They DID!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YENbElb5-xY
 

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And Kennedy didn't simply "talk to Khrushchev" he told Khrushchev under no uncertain terms that if he didn't immediately remove his missiles from Cuba and turn his ships around that the shooting would start and we would let the chips would fall where they may. Something that took balls... another thing that Obama is clearly lacking.
Since no tapes of said conversations were ever released, nor were any transcripts, you cannot be certain that he behaved that way. For all we know, the conversation went more like "What would it take to get you to disarm Cuba and recall the fleet?" This would be followed by a reply, counter, counter-counter and a settlement.

"If you don't, I'll kick your ass" would not have worked against the Soviets. Their pride and ego was larger than America's. They would have called our bluff in a heartbeat.
 

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if i saw you on the street i would have to wreck you, for this personally offends me.
And your threats and internet nutswinging offends me. It shows a lack of thought, reason, or respect for others' opinions. You're not the only one who has lost or sacrificed for this country. You do not get a monopoly on patriotism. That you threaten violence against a countryman flies in the very face of what you profess to covet; of what you claim to defend with your life.
 

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let me ask you, how many friends have died in your arms, or in front of you. how many trucks have you had to wash your friends blood out of or remove remains? anyone who talks bout wanting, or wishing harm on any us soldier while in combat needs to take a look at all the freedoms that soldier is giving him/her. i do not need to respect his opinion about wishing harm on myself or my brothers. i do not need to stand by and watch someone disrespect them. they paid the ultimate price so you can have your liberal ideals and live your life as you please. in my opinion, love it or leave it. i challenge you to find another country on this planet that gives you as much as this one does.
 

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let me ask you, how many friends have died in your arms, or in front of you. how many trucks have you had to wash your friends blood out of or remove remains? anyone who talks bout wanting, or wishing harm on any us soldier while in combat needs to take a look at all the freedoms that soldier is giving him/her. i do not need to respect his opinion about wishing harm on myself or my brothers. i do not need to stand by and watch someone disrespect them. they paid the ultimate price so you can have your liberal ideals and live your life as you please. in my opinion, love it or leave it. i challenge you to find another country on this planet that gives you as much as this one does.
You misunderstood his statement and went off half-cocked. He was putting himself in the misguided perspective of a Sunni or Shiite. Based upon what those folks are taught, they have made their decisions to behave in that fashion. I think it is as reprehensible as the next guy. But we knew this going in. To act all surprised is an insult to the Office and the country.

You don't know me. You don't know what I have endured. And you never will, so stop judging people. That you think I am a liberal shows how little you know people.
 

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:rolling: :rolling: :rolling:
Of course our naval blockade was only like a Soviet welcome wagon.
Ever heard of defcon 1???
The world would have ended that day. Both sides needed a way out and a way to save face.

One of my closest friend's father worked at the Kremlin over that time. Their version to their people is EXACTLY the same as the US gubmint's version to us:

"We threatenned to wipe them out and they backed off."

Again. No tapes. No transcripts. No proof of what ANY of the negotiations were like.
 

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You misunderstood his statement and went off half-cocked. He was putting himself in the misguided perspective of a Sunni or Shiite. Based upon what those folks are taught, they have made their decisions to behave in that fashion. I think it is as reprehensible as the next guy. But we knew this going in. To act all surprised is an insult to the Office and the country.
Thank you for understanding my point...although I am sure he did too, but chose to twist it around to make me look bad and so discredit anything I say. :thumbsup:
 

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The world would have ended that day. Both sides needed a way out and a way to save face.

.

The theat of M.A.D. and the fact that we weren't bluffing is what ended the standoff. Which leads back to the original topic.. the need for a strong leader and not a pussy.
 

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The theat of M.A.D. and the fact that we weren't bluffing is what ended the standoff. Which leads back to the original topic.. the need for a strong leader and not a pussy.
How do you know that? You don't. None of us do. The two guys who know are dead. I got news. They were not bluffing either. What ended the standoff was TALKING TO HIM.

Sometimes it takes a stronger man to approach an adversary than to ignore them.

How many times in a disagreement does one side have to be the bigger man and extend the hand to the other?

Is America not so great as to need friends and conflict resolution?

A wise man once said "I would rather have my enemies inside my tent pissing out, than outside my tent pissing in."

Look, all these little despots and fanatics want is to be taken seriously. To feel like they are actually being heard. No different than any schoolyard bully. We get them to the table. We let them vent their peace. We constructively explain our reasoning. Then we negotiate a settlement. This may take 5 years of diplomatic effort. Better than 5 years of mopping our blood out of Humvees.

Diplomacy is a macro scenario of a barricaded standoff. No matter what you do to the guy in the house, he'll stay put. Cut the power. Cut the food. Play loud music, etc. All that will happen is he'll get pissed and eventually start shooting. Get a negotiator there to listen to the guy and he'll come out eventually. Or just shoot the whole ****ing house full of bullets and piss of the entire neighborhood in the process.
 

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Look, all these little despots and fanatics want is to be taken seriously. To feel like they are actually being heard. .
Oh, I think they were heard good and loud on 9/11. Diplomacy is great, but not with someone who wants nothing more than to kill you.
 

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Look, all these little despots and fanatics want is to be taken seriously. To feel like they are actually being heard. No different than any schoolyard bully. We get them to the table. We let them vent their peace. We constructively explain our reasoning. Then we negotiate a settlement. This may take 5 years of diplomatic effort. Better than 5 years of mopping our blood out of Humvees.
That depends on if they rattle the saber to be the alpha male, or to achive goals...imho
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Mongol General: Conan! What is best in life?

Conan: To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women.
Mongol General: That is good! That is good


I am not afraid of an army of lions led by a sheep; I am afraid of an army of sheep led by a lion.
Alexander the Great

Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Napoleon Bonaparte

Four hostile newspapers are more to be feared than a thousand bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte


Democratic nations must try to find ways to starve the terrorist and the hijacker of the oxygen of publicity on which they depend.
Margaret Thatcher

I seem to smell the stench of appeasement in the air.
Margaret Thatcher

If you just set out to be liked, you would be prepared to compromise on anything at any time, and you would achieve nothing.
Margaret Thatcher

A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
George S. Patton


If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.
George S. Patton

If my critics saw me walking over the Thames they would say it was because I couldn't swim.
Margaret Thatcher


THINGS DON,T CHANGE MUCH!
 
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