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What did you think would happen... ?. The minimum wage was increased -Union member's are making near twice that of the private sector... to the detriment of the individual not associated to the union. High wages forced on the economy by unionism... is the cause of economic hardships to nonunion and unskilled workers. They are being squeezed out of the market. We see the results of the mixing of socialist ideologies and capitalism, today. Organized labors privileges and governmental support... is the reason we have the high unemployment numbers we have today. For years government and union has held the belief that the costs would be covered by taxes imposed upon the rich... but, the biggest victim of government spending and taxation... is the middle class. Organized labor workers... are part of that middleclass... and the artificial value of unions forced upon the workforce and the economy through these socialistic ideological gains... is now being wiped out... due to the very social gains they were born of.
 

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While I do see the need and the desire for unions. I'm with VF on this one. we are currently reviewing a multi million dollar contract where the union has been in place for almost 10 years. with ever growing CBA and strong union we are looking at socializing it-- yes making it a government entity again.. Why? because even with the "high" gov't fringe rates and full medical etc-- the cost is about 8% cheaper to make it civil service.
we've talked and the company is willing to come off their profit and overhead-- but the union officials are adamant about not reducing the bargaining agreement. can't blame the company for not wanting to assume all the burden since this is mainly a man power intensive contract.

So for an average of $0.70 cents perhour the union is going to shut a lot of people out of a good job and force the rest who are eligible for gov't work to take a larger pay cut.. OBTW even with the pay cut they'd still be making more than the national average and the median for similar categories of work in the local area.

:crazy:
 

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Definitely no surprises here. The brunt of the change is being borne by those without higher education. Our country's place in the world has changed causing routine manufacturing to move elsewhere. This was the pot of gold that allowed generations of High School grads (or less) to get decent paying jobs. With most of those jobs gone, the pool of good jobs for that group has shrunk. It is affecting every aspect of our society. We know what the problem is, but, as a country, we haven't figured out what to do. The answer for those 35-55 year olds without specialized training is not good. They are going to have to figure out how to get that training. The answer for those under 35 is to be damn sure they get education and training to prepare for the new world. There are no bad guys in this scenario. It's the inevitable change that accompanies technological progress.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Definitely no surprises here. The brunt of the change is being borne by those without higher education. Our country's place in the world has changed causing routine manufacturing to move elsewhere. This was the pot of gold that allowed generations of High School grads (or less) to get decent paying jobs. With most of those jobs gone, the pool of good jobs for that group has shrunk. It is affecting every aspect of our society. We know what the problem is, but, as a country, we haven't figured out what to do. The answer for those 35-55 year olds without specialized training is not good. They are going to have to figure out how to get that training. The answer for those under 35 is to be damn sure they get education and training to prepare for the new world. There are no bad guys in this scenario. It's the inevitable change that accompanies technological progress.


That sounds great. But it is not the case. It would be great to say that it is just low education level jobs that are going overseas but that is just not the case. It would be great to say that it is union jobs that are going overseas, but again that is not the case. The fact of the matter is that the jobs leaving the country today are all sorts of jobs including profesional jobs. Ex rays are being sent to India to be read by Indian radiologists. Computer programers are loosing jobs at an alarming rate. Legal work is now being shipped to India also. These are not low wage or low education level jobs. The article points out that although high school only workers are loosing more ground, college grads are also loosing ground.

And while this happens to our country we have the usual bunch crying out about how it is because of unions. It is not, it is because of a complete lack of patriotism on the part of the american people, and a complete misundersatnding that thier income is going to take a serious hit if this does not change. The dilusional people who say that simply lowering taxes and getting rid of unions will help bring back jobs just do not see what is realy happening. It isn't that companies aren't creating jobs, it is that companies are creating the jobs in other countries. It isn't that government has been growing, it is that government has been growing to hide the fact that all these jobs are going overseas.

Boy it is hard to feel bad for the american people while they whistle dixie as they march thier families and future generations towards poverty. :crazy::crazy::crazy:
 

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That sounds great. But it is not the case. It would be great to say that it is just low education level jobs that are going overseas but that is just not the case. It would be great to say that it is union jobs that are going overseas, but again that is not the case. The fact of the matter is that the jobs leaving the country today are all sorts of jobs including profesional jobs. Ex rays are being sent to India to be read by Indian radiologists. Computer programers are loosing jobs at an alarming rate. Legal work is now being shipped to India also. These are not low wage or low education level jobs. The article points out that although high school only workers are loosing more ground, college grads are also loosing ground.

And while this happens to our country we have the usual bunch crying out about how it is because of unions. It is not, it is because of a complete lack of patriotism on the part of the american people, and a complete misundersatnding that thier income is going to take a serious hit if this does not change. The dilusional people who say that simply lowering taxes and getting rid of unions will help bring back jobs just do not see what is realy happening. It isn't that companies aren't creating jobs, it is that companies are creating the jobs in other countries. It isn't that government has been growing, it is that government has been growing to hide the fact that all these jobs are going overseas.

Boy it is hard to feel bad for the american people while they whistle dixie as they march thier families and future generations towards poverty. :crazy::crazy::crazy:
:thud:

:agree:
 

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The dilusional people who say that simply lowering taxes and getting rid of unions will help bring back jobs just do not see what is realy happening.
Who is it that is saying this ? I've never hear a soul say this... or anything to this effect. These are parts of a bigger problem... that is what has been said. If anything... it is you crying out in delusion when a light is shown on them... refusing to acknowledge the most infinitesimal amount of blame... -rather, calling them as the countries saviors to all our economic problems.

This is another liberal farce... You make up a "republican" ideological argument that does not exist... and then call it delusional in order to lend credence to an ideology that can not stand on it's own... liberalism.
 

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That sounds great. But it is not the case. It would be great to say that it is just low education level jobs that are going overseas but that is just not the case. It would be great to say that it is union jobs that are going overseas, but again that is not the case. The fact of the matter is that the jobs leaving the country today are all sorts of jobs including profesional jobs. Ex rays are being sent to India to be read by Indian radiologists. Computer programers are loosing jobs at an alarming rate. Legal work is now being shipped to India also. These are not low wage or low education level jobs. The article points out that although high school only workers are loosing more ground, college grads are also loosing ground.

And while this happens to our country we have the usual bunch crying out about how it is because of unions. It is not, it is because of a complete lack of patriotism on the part of the american people, and a complete misundersatnding that thier income is going to take a serious hit if this does not change. The dilusional people who say that simply lowering taxes and getting rid of unions will help bring back jobs just do not see what is realy happening. It isn't that companies aren't creating jobs, it is that companies are creating the jobs in other countries. It isn't that government has been growing, it is that government has been growing to hide the fact that all these jobs are going overseas.

Boy it is hard to feel bad for the american people while they whistle dixie as they march thier families and future generations towards poverty. :crazy::crazy::crazy:
But there is a difference in the high skill worker and unskilled worker as far as job outlook. There aren't any radiologists over here (yet) who can't find work. There aren't many engineers (yet) who can't find work if they are willing to relocate or get additional training in hotter fields. But those high school grads who could count on finding a job that pays $40/hr with benefits and retirement will find no replacement for those jobs. Education is still the key and will be more so in the future.
As for unions, I have plenty of problems with them, but this isn't one of them. Yes, their high wage demands drive jobs offshore faster, but the jobs are going anyway. There are over 2 billion Chinese and Indians ready willing and able to work smart and work hard at a fraction of the cost of an American worker. No amount of agonizing can change that fact. This change has only begun and will be more pronounced as time passes.
 

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But there is a difference in the high skill worker and unskilled worker as far as job outlook. There aren't any radiologists over here (yet) who can't find work. There aren't many engineers (yet) who can't find work if they are willing to relocate or get additional training in hotter fields. But those high school grads who could count on finding a job that pays $40/hr with benefits and retirement will find no replacement for those jobs. Education is still the key and will be more so in the future.
As for unions, I have plenty of problems with them, but this isn't one of them. Yes, their high wage demands drive jobs offshore faster, but the jobs are going anyway. There are over 2 billion Chinese and Indians ready willing and able to work smart and work hard at a fraction of the cost of an American worker. No amount of agonizing can change that fact. This change has only begun and will be more pronounced as time passes.
These two options should bring out some interesting (you can't do that from both sides).:D

But these Chinese and Indians ready willing and able to work smart and work hard at a fraction of the cost can't afford the products they make.

So it looks like the country should be divided in to to groups. One that makes the products for luxury, and one that buy the products of luxury.

Another option would be like the rest of the world does, Tax the hell out of imported products...:huh:
 

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Education is still the key and will be more so in the future.
Labor does not require education... engineering does. Too much emphasis is demanded upon education... too much emphasis is given to the educated. Workers are what is needed at this point in our economy. The educated... believing themselves to be worth more then the reality... is partially to blame for the lack of the labor force. Jobs can not return if there are no workers... and entirely too many educated managers. This... is our dilemma... we are too educated for our own good.
 

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Labor does not require education... engineering does. Too much emphasis is demanded upon education... too much emphasis is given to the educated. Workers are what is needed at this point in our economy. The educated... believing themselves to be worth more then the reality... is partially to blame for the lack of the labor force. Jobs can not return if there are no workers... and entirely too many educated managers. This... is our dilemma... we are too educated for our own good.
Amen Brother...
 

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Labor does not require education... engineering does. Too much emphasis is demanded upon education... too much emphasis is given to the educated. Workers are what is needed at this point in our economy. The educated... believing themselves to be worth more then the reality... is partially to blame for the lack of the labor force. Jobs can not return if there are no workers... and entirely too many educated managers. This... is our dilemma... we are too educated for our own good.
WOW I realy can't believe I am saying this...but ...I agree completely. :agree::agree: Too many chiefs not enough braves. Too many insurance salesmen not enough Plumbers and electricians.
 

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Labor does not require education... engineering does. Too much emphasis is demanded upon education... too much emphasis is given to the educated. Workers are what is needed at this point in our economy. The educated... believing themselves to be worth more then the reality... is partially to blame for the lack of the labor force. Jobs can not return if there are no workers... and entirely too many educated managers. This... is our dilemma... we are too educated for our own good.
The question is, do you prepare for the job market you WISH existed, or the job market that ACTUALLY exists? It would be wonderful if there was another pool of high paying jobs for high school graduates out there. It simply isn't coming.
 

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The question is, do you prepare for the job market you WISH existed, or the job market that ACTUALLY exists? It would be wonderful if there was another pool of high paying jobs for high school graduates out there. It simply isn't coming.
And who is going to build your house. Or fix your pipes or fix your electrical problems or your car or your appliances. Who will take care of you when you are in a home in your old age. I know that as a profesional toward the end of your career, you don't see the threat to you, and there probably is no threat to you but your kids and my kids are in for real trouble. Who will be able to afford a dentist when people are making the kind of money that jobs will pay when we compete with China. Where will unemployement be when the jobs that kids are going to college for today move to India.

China has artificialy pegged it's currency to ours for decades now and the result is the unemployement and huge trade deficits we have today. This is an unfair trading practice. It is high time we did something about it, and stopped believing that this is the way of the future. If this is the way of the future it is only so because we were too complacent to fight for the good of this country.
 

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WOW I realy can't believe I am saying this...but ...I agree completely. :agree::agree: Too many chiefs not enough braves. Too many insurance salesmen not enough Plumbers and electricians.
Maaaaan... now I have to change my position on the subject :laughing:
 

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And who is going to build your house. Or fix your pipes or fix your electrical problems or your car or your appliances. Who will take care of you when you are in a home in your old age. I know that as a profesional toward the end of your career, you don't see the threat to you, and there probably is no threat to you but your kids and my kids are in for real trouble. Who will be able to afford a dentist when people are making the kind of money that jobs will pay when we compete with China. Where will unemployement be when the jobs that kids are going to college for today move to India.

China has artificialy pegged it's currency to ours for decades now and the result is the unemployement and huge trade deficits we have today. This is an unfair trading practice. It is high time we did something about it, and stopped believing that this is the way of the future. If this is the way of the future it is only so because we were too complacent to fight for the good of this country.
I have never said there would be no need for any blue collar work. What I have been saying is that there will no longer be millions of high paying jobs with great healthcare and retirement benefits for workers with lower education levels. I certainly don't like it. I wish we could control China. But we can't. Whatever methods we try to use to limit the effects that China and India have on our economy will be short-lived at best. There are 2 billion of them that are going to do the jobs much of our manufacturing sector used to do. This transition is going to be painful for all of us - including dentists who have fewer patients who can afford top care.

Here is from a new Newsweek article I got just today:
"Previously, job losses were spread broadly throughout the economy. This time around, they are mainly concentrated in three sectors: construction, manufacturing (particularly the automotive sector), and finance. That leaves plenty of other parts of the economy that are relatively untouched, and some -- such as education and health care -- that are rapidly growing. There are less obvious areas of growth, too. Plenty of export-oriented businesses are booming, as are technology firms and anything to do with commodities or agriculture.

Later in the article he states:
In a broader sense, the job prospects of nearly all Americans will hinge on education. U.S. competitiveness, like that of all rich countries, will increasingly revolve around moving higher up the food chain in every sector. China may be the world's factory, but it has yet to create an iPad. Innovations of this sort create truly desirable jobs.
But to ensure that America remains an innovation hub, we'll need to not only churn out more highly skilled college-educated graduates, particularly in the sciences, but also retrain existing workers to take on jobs in new sectors.

This stuff seems so apparent to me that I can't understand why we sit here finger pointing when it will not change the facts one iota. It seems to me what is called for is rolling up our sleeves and doing what Americans do best: solve problems.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have never said there would be no need for any blue collar work. What I have been saying is that there will no longer be millions of high paying jobs with great healthcare and retirement benefits for workers with lower education levels. I certainly don't like it. I wish we could control China. But we can't. Whatever methods we try to use to limit the effects that China and India have on our economy will be short-lived at best. There are 2 billion of them that are going to do the jobs much of our manufacturing sector used to do. This transition is going to be painful for all of us - including dentists who have fewer patients who can afford top care.

Here is from a new Newsweek article I got just today:
"Previously, job losses were spread broadly throughout the economy. This time around, they are mainly concentrated in three sectors: construction, manufacturing (particularly the automotive sector), and finance. That leaves plenty of other parts of the economy that are relatively untouched, and some -- such as education and health care -- that are rapidly growing. There are less obvious areas of growth, too. Plenty of export-oriented businesses are booming, as are technology firms and anything to do with commodities or agriculture.

Later in the article he states:
In a broader sense, the job prospects of nearly all Americans will hinge on education. U.S. competitiveness, like that of all rich countries, will increasingly revolve around moving higher up the food chain in every sector. China may be the world's factory, but it has yet to create an iPad. Innovations of this sort create truly desirable jobs.
But to ensure that America remains an innovation hub, we'll need to not only churn out more highly skilled college-educated graduates, particularly in the sciences, but also retrain existing workers to take on jobs in new sectors.

This stuff seems so apparent to me that I can't understand why we sit here finger pointing when it will not change the facts one iota. It seems to me what is called for is rolling up our sleeves and doing what Americans do best: solve problems.
I agree that what we have to do is solve problems but first you have to agree on the cause of the problems. My business can and does compete well with China especialy when the company who is pitting us against China compares apples to apples such as lead time and quality. It is the short sighted companies who allow their products to get made cheaper and from cheaper materials that end up screwing thier customers and then in the end lose customers due to falling quality. For example. I have two car lifts in my garage. Both of them are Bend-pack lifts and both are the exact same model. The first one bought 3 years ago was very nice. It has made in USA all over it. Because of the fine quality of the first lift I bought the exact same lift when I finished the new garage. When I started assembling it I noticed that the components were thinner. The legs which were made of 1/8 thick steel on the first lift were now 3/32, the ladder racK which actualy supports the car when up in the air measured 5/16" thick on the first model but the new model came with 3/16" thick racks. Once completely up I noticed that the lift just wasn't as solid as the first one was, then I noticed the made in USA sticker now read made in China. I could not return the chinese lift but I certainly told Bend Pack that I would not be buying the third lift from them. They explained that they needed to have these units made in China to Compete with the low priced units, but being in the manufacturing business I know that simply reducing the thickness of the material would have saved the money they needed to compete. Going to China for manufacturing simply added a huge cost for the shipping of these large and heavy lifts. In short they probably lowered their costs slightly by going to China in the short run but they lost at least one customer and probably a lot more when people realize the much lower quality.
But the real question has to be, what business is immune from being sent overseas? Perhaps the plumbers and electricians but again who will be able to hire them. There is no job in the world that would not be cheaper to do in a much lower standard of living country. And If you start letting mexicans or Chinese people come here to work they would I am sure be far cheaper than the american worker. And as far as education goes, we rank way down in the level of education that our kids get when compared to the rest of the world. Why would we neccessarily be the guys to design the next I pod or anything else for that matter.

The news week article that you posted is symtomatic of the problem. The people who feel that thier job could never be exported always stand up and say that all those in jobs getting exported need to do is buck-up and get better educated, and they will be fine. They all talk about how this is just the way things are but then thier job goes away and they start screaming. I had two friends that were a perfect example of this. They always laughed at my rantings against the export of jobs. They told me to get with the times, exporting the "bad" jobs was good for the country. Those lowly assembly line workers would be better off loosing their jobs and then being trained for better paying low impact work, like computer programing, what they both did. Then both of thier jobs were imported to India. They play a much different tune today, especialy since they lost thier home.

Like you said we need to work together to solve this problem but the first thing we have to do is truly understand the problem.
 

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Like you said we need to work together to solve this problem but the first thing we have to do is truly understand the problem.
That's a sensible statement that I should agree with. But I only partially agree with it. Finding a culprit will not help us as we move into the future at all. It certainly will help to understand the problem, but when I hear that statement with the accomanying arguments, it seems to say "Let's find a way to keep the status quo". Well, the status quo cannot be maintained. We might be able to pass some punitive legislation to help maintain it for a year or two, but the economic retaliation would come, and would be painful for many. In the long run, the world economy will move on with or without us. All I'm saying is, we had better figure out how to change if we want to stay at the top of the pack or we will be passed over by the emerging powers.
 

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That's a sensible statement that I should agree with. But I only partially agree with it. Finding a culprit will not help us as we move into the future at all. It certainly will help to understand the problem, but when I hear that statement with the accomanying arguments, it seems to say "Let's find a way to keep the status quo". Well, the status quo cannot be maintained. We might be able to pass some punitive legislation to help maintain it for a year or two, but the economic retaliation would come, and would be painful for many. In the long run, the world economy will move on with or without us. All I'm saying is, we had better figure out how to change if we want to stay at the top of the pack or we will be passed over by the emerging powers.
Well a good start would be to level the playing field. Force China to De-peg thier currency artificialy to ours. If the chineses currency floated as it should thier price advantage would soon disapear. To just say what the hell we know China is cheating but hey thats the way things go is naive and dangerous. We should stand up to China.

Furthermore we as americans should start to realize that we don't need the government to impose tarrifs or other actions that would cause retaliation, we just simply have to stop buying Chinese made products. Pay a little more for the product that is american made and tell the stores that you shop at that you don't want to buy Chinese or foreign made products.

Other countries do this and have for years. The Japanese never needed to impose restrictions on our products because the Japenese people understood that buying foriegn hurt the country. They just don't buy foreign made if they can help it. We need to do the same.
 

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Well a good start would be to level the playing field. Force China to De-peg thier currency artificialy to ours. If the chineses currency floated as it should thier price advantage would soon disapear. To just say what the hell we know China is cheating but hey thats the way things go is naive and dangerous. We should stand up to China.

Furthermore we as americans should start to realize that we don't need the government to impose tarrifs or other actions that would cause retaliation, we just simply have to stop buying Chinese made products. Pay a little more for the product that is american made and tell the stores that you shop at that you don't want to buy Chinese or foreign made products.

Other countries do this and have for years. The Japanese never needed to impose restrictions on our products because the Japenese people understood that buying foriegn hurt the country. They just don't buy foreign made if they can help it. We need to do the same.
I like the fact that you have some strategies. I agree that the American people could have an effect on China's exports. But governmental pressure only works if you have a strong bargaining position or a hammer that is bigger than your opponent's. In the past we always did, but these days, China wields as much power as we do in this relationship. Furthermore, the future is going to be very different. Right now, America is the biggest market by far for manufactured goods. But because of their ever improving economic situation, China and Inda are poised to become huge consumers. They are the markets of the future. As such, their need to cater to us will be diminished. The world is going to change dramatically in the next 30 years, and the net result will be American economic power being reduced relative to the emerging giants. If we lose our stature as the #1 source of development of new ideas, we will have lost it all.
 
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