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I agree that these are problems. But they are not even close to being significant enough to close the gap between the labor costs of the U.S. and Asia. It's easy to find a dozen legislative or trade pebbles to throw at the problem and make a slight dent in it. But there is simply no way to close the gap between people who need $30-40/hr total compensation to live comfortably and people who need $3-5/hr to live comfortably. The value of the dollar is important in many ways and needs to be addressed. But it absolutely will not bring manufacturing jobs back to the U.S.
Tex, by that thinking, plese let me know of any job that could not be exported, or done cheaper by allowing aliens to do all work in this country. Doctors in india work for way way less than our Doctors here. Lets import all of Indias doctors here and do away with all the rules that keep them out, and we will have solved our medical cost problem overnight. Change the rules and allow anybody to do dental work, regardless of training...after all the rules in place are only there to limit competition. The market would keep bad dentists from surviving, wouldn't it? Hell even lawyers are now being outsourced to India. If we accept this idea that we cannot compete in the world due to our income, it is simply the case that we would then have to lower our standard of living to that of the lowest standard of living if we want to compete. That means that a gallon of gas would have to cost us $25 as it does now to the average chinese person. That means that food would become our highest expense as it is for the Indian citizen. We have never competed on a dollar for dollar basis in the world before, because it simply isn't in our best interest. If you think it is, then you would have to accept that all segments of our economy including yours would have to adopt to new levels of competetion, and that means removing all barriers to competition, including licensing.
 

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If you think these issues are limited to liberals, you are kidding yourself. The government is broken as a whole and needs a revamp top to bottom.

We need tax reform and a major reform in the Federal Government spending in all areas. States need to take more responsibility for their spending and depend much less on Federal funding.

Continuing to fail to recognize the Federal economic problems is a National problem, not limited to partisan issues will just allow the feds to do business as usual and will not fix the problem.

The originally of very issue that plagues this Republic today can be traced back to some jackass democrap socialist policy or program. All the way to FDR. The only way a liberal can get elected or stay in office is by buying votes through giveaway entitlement programs. These programs have been compounding for decades in order to buy more votes. Every GD year it has to be more and more, and the working middle class get screwed.

I agree that the fed is totally out of control. I agree that the states have been blackmailed out of their constitutional rights, using the taxpayer money as a ransom. I agree that we need a complete tax reform. Too many lazy sumbitches riding in the wagon, and those of us pulling it are tired.

But, all our problems began with socialistic ideas.

This country built itself into the strongest economic nation on the planet, and did so, not because of the federal guberment, but through hard work from it's citizens. When we became so wealthy, we began feeling "sorry" for some of our people, and offer them a hand up. This has evolved into a hand out, and these hand outs are like trying to carry water using a bottomless bucket. It's crazy.

Unfortunately, our guberment has become so politically correct, so bureaucratic, such a monster, so corrupt and completely out of touch with the nation, that it will be impossible to correct things using the vote. Too many stupid, entitlement-minded people allowed to vote. Too much voter fraud.

It is going to require something immense to re-set this Republics’ course.

It will not be pretty.

It will not be polititical.

It will not be easy.

Liberals will not like it.

It will be coming soon.
 

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It's not crazy, it's time to stop. You and I both know the only way to force them to quit spending, is to take away their Chinese Express Card.

Agreeing to raise the debt cieling is just dumb, I know what your saying, but you have to factor in the interest payments which will be increasing over the next few years, would you prefer we crash now and reform the system? Or continue on the same path, which will ultimately lead to the majority of the budget going to debt payments, while we all die slowly?
:agree: Taking a stand on the debt ceiling is not simply a stubborn determination to stand their ground. The spenders in congress have proven over and over again that no matter how much revenue they are given to work with, they will always spend that and more. At some point, we have to convince the spenders of both parties that we have a huge fiscal problem and painful solutions are the only answer. Congressmen don't like painful answers because it tends to get them unelected. But something must get their attention, and this is one tool.
 

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It's not crazy, it's time to stop. You and I both know the only way to force them to quit spending, is to take away their Chinese Express Card.

Agreeing to raise the debt cieling is just dumb, I know what your saying, but you have to factor in the interest payments which will be increasing over the next few years, would you prefer we crash now and reform the system? Or continue on the same path, which will ultimately lead to the majority of the budget going to debt payments, while we all die slowly?
So what you are saying is let our country colapse now rather than try to solve our problems. You are just giving up, and that is a stupid way of governing. We have to make every effort to solve our problems and only default as the very last resort if at all. You understand that the only people who would survive this situation are those wth enough assets to survive 20-30 years without income. Those people would become kings while all the rest of us would become pesants. If this si the country you want, I want no part of it.
 

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So what you are saying is let our country colapse now rather than try to solve our problems. You are just giving up, and that is a stupid way of governing. We have to make every effort to solve our problems and only default as the very last resort if at all. You understand that the only people who would survive this situation are those wth enough assets to survive 20-30 years without income. Those people would become kings while all the rest of us would become pesants. If this si the country you want, I want no part of it.
The country won't collapse and debts won't go unpaid. Those are scare tactics they use just like they always say teachers, cops and firefighters will be fired if we don't let them raise taxes. There are slush funds and other reserves to borrow from while they work on the root cause of the problem. It won't be until they see no alternative to shrinking government spending that we will begin to get our fiscal house in order. Just allowing more of the same is not the answer.
 

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:agree: Taking a stand on the debt ceiling is not simply a stubborn determination to stand their ground. The spenders in congress have proven over and over again that no matter how much revenue they are given to work with, they will always spend that and more. At some point, we have to convince the spenders of both parties that we have a huge fiscal problem and painful solutions are the only answer. Congressmen don't like painful answers because it tends to get them unelected. But something must get their attention, and this is one tool.
If this is the republican position, then it is obvious that republicans can no longer be trusted to run this country. It is not controling spending to default on your obligations, it is acting like a low life. The USA is the greatest economy in the world because we honor our obligations. The world will turn it's back on us and the dollar will stop being the world currency if we allow our government to default on our obligations.

If you want to cut spending do so in the budget. None of you would be such low lifes as to not pay the bills you have agreed to pay. Why do you want our government to do so???:crazy::crazy::crazy:
 

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If this is the republican position, then it is obvious that republicans can no longer be trusted to run this country. It is not controling spending to default on your obligations, it is acting like a low life. The USA is the greatest economy in the world because we honor our obligations. The world will turn it's back on us and the dollar will stop being the world currency if we allow our government to default on our obligations.

If you want to cut spending do so in the budget. None of you would be such low lifes as to not pay the bills you have agreed to pay. Why do you want our government to do so???:crazy::crazy::crazy:
How else do you grab the spenders by the collar and shake them? A perfect example is the passing of Obamacare in the middle of the greatest fiscal crisis we have had since the great depression. It's insanity. They didn't pass it because there we no choice. They passed it because political stars aligned for the first time where they could, so they passed it in spite of the terrible impact it will have on our spending. Everyone knows the numbers are based on crap assumptions and that the cost will be huge. Why would they do that in the face of the mounting debt we already cannot pay? How do you get these people's attention?:huh:
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
So what you are saying is let our country colapse now rather than try to solve our problems. You are just giving up, and that is a stupid way of governing.
40 years of stupid governing got us here, we don't have another 40 to get out, especially when there is a percentage of the population (almost half) that will not allow reductions and 1 faction of the statist party is dead set on spending 120% of GDP. The only reason our debt is sellable now, is because the dollar is the oil currency. Once that goes, the house of cards crashes anyway. If we manage/control the crash, it will be much better on people in this country.

We have to make every effort to solve our problems and only default as the very last resort if at all. You understand that the only people who would survive this situation are those wth enough assets to survive 20-30 years without income. Those people would become kings while all the rest of us would become pesants. If this si the country you want, I want no part of it.
No Machine, that's the direction this country is heading now. I know most people think it's tin-foil-hat, but look around at the control being setup in this country, people in power positions know exactly what they are driving us into. This is not some accidental "oh we had good intentions" scenario, this is well designed.

Either way, there is a crash. What we gotta decide, is if it's crash we can manage, or a holy **** Wiemar situation we end up with.
 

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If this is the republican position, then it is obvious that republicans can no longer be trusted to run this country. It is not controling spending to default on your obligations, it is acting like a low life. The USA is the greatest economy in the world because we honor our obligations. The world will turn it's back on us and the dollar will stop being the world currency if we allow our government to default on our obligations.
Brother... I would lend agreement to this if every single other country was not in the same position we are... every single one. Most are in far worse shape then we are. Again... we are the most stable investment world wide. We are the safest bet to place investment in. Virtually every economy world wide... is predicated upon Americas. Including and especially China and Middle East. That! and only that... is the reason the worlds economy is still lagging ours.

I have zero fear of a change in the worlds currency being replaced.

If you give them more... they will spend more. Whats the rush ? One day before we would default... we could raise the debt we are allowed to saddle future American citizens with... so that some politician can be generous with your and my tax dollars to get himself reelected by giving it to one of his constituent bases.
 

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What you all fail to realize is that the debt cieling is not the mechanism to control spending. The budget is that mechanism. The debt cieling is simply the paying of the bill. Not a single one of you believes that we as citizens should be able to just walk away from our debts, why would you think this is the way to go for our government? Why is it that you guys are willing to destroy this country to make Obama look bad.....we are the ones who will pay. :crazy::crazy:
 

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No Machine, that's the direction this country is heading now. I know most people think it's tin-foil-hat, but look around at the control being setup in this country, people in power positions know exactly what they are driving us into. This is not some accidental "oh we had good intentions" scenario, this is well designed.

Either way, there is a crash. What we gotta decide, is if it's crash we can manage, or a holy **** Wiemar situation we end up with.
I agree completely with you that this is well designed....so why would you want to do exactly what will give those who have set this all up the mechanism they need to finalize their plan. Again you me and everybody on this sight will lose everything. You will be handing all power and control to the people who have sold this country down the tiolet. I just think that if this is the plan to get rid of the problems in washington, we are just trading those problems for much much worse problems. :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
 

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Tex, by that thinking, plese let me know of any job that could not be exported, or done cheaper by allowing aliens to do all work in this country. Doctors in india work for way way less than our Doctors here. Lets import all of Indias doctors here and do away with all the rules that keep them out, and we will have solved our medical cost problem overnight. Change the rules and allow anybody to do dental work, regardless of training...after all the rules in place are only there to limit competition. The market would keep bad dentists from surviving, wouldn't it? Hell even lawyers are now being outsourced to India. If we accept this idea that we cannot compete in the world due to our income, it is simply the case that we would then have to lower our standard of living to that of the lowest standard of living if we want to compete. That means that a gallon of gas would have to cost us $25 as it does now to the average chinese person. That means that food would become our highest expense as it is for the Indian citizen. We have never competed on a dollar for dollar basis in the world before, because it simply isn't in our best interest. If you think it is, then you would have to accept that all segments of our economy including yours would have to adopt to new levels of competetion, and that means removing all barriers to competition, including licensing.
How bout this Tex...should we do away with all the things that keep competetion down in this country or not?
 

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What you all fail to realize is that the debt cieling is not the mechanism to control spending. The budget is that mechanism. The debt cieling is simply the paying of the bill. Not a single one of you believes that we as citizens should be able to just walk away from our debts, why would you think this is the way to go for our government? Why is it that you guys are willing to destroy this country to make Obama look bad.....we are the ones who will pay. :crazy::crazy:
No brother, that's incorrect. That is not what increasing our ability to incur more debt, is. What I just said -is it's purpose. We are currently at 94% of GDP. That means we can still pay for out debt with 3% of GDP to spare. Rather then cutting spending for future obligations... you would have us incur more debt. Raising the amount of debt we can incur... pays for nothing.

Regardless of the way they wish to "sanitize" it by giving it such an ambiguous term "raise the ceiling"... it's definition and outcome is the same. More and greater debt incurred. That is not the direction we need to take.
 

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No brother, that's incorrect. That is not what increasing our ability to incur more debt, is. What I just said -is it's purpose. We are currently at 94% of GDP. That means we can still pay for out debt with 3% of GDP to spare. Rather then cutting spending for future obligations... you would have us incur more debt. Raising the amount of debt we can incur... pays for nothing.

Regardless of the way they wish to "sanitize" it by giving it such an ambiguous term "raise the ceiling"... it's definition and outcome is the same. More and greater debt incurred. That is not the direction we need to take.
I know this is a holiday weekend my friend but that hardly means you should start drinking this early in the day. :laughing:

What you wrote makes no sense.The fact that we are at 94% of GDP has nothing to do with the debt cieling, it has to do with spending. We pass budgets that say we will spend X amount on this and Y amount on this and Z amounts on the other thing. Our representatives vote on this. If they pass this law that is what the government authorizes the branches of government to spend. The fact that there will be a deficit may or may not be known but there is usualy a pretty good understanding that there will be a deficit, unless there is an unforseen income boom....at least for the last decade.

The fact that they raised spending in the budget does not mean that we have a second bite at the apple by not funding the budget. How will we pay our debt when interest rates go through the roof when we default on our debt payments. Will you blame the pubs for that or try to point to Obama and say it happened under his watch so it is his fault??? Everybody knows what you hope the answer will be.

Have a nice holiday. :thumbsup:
 

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I know this is a holiday weekend my friend but that hardly means you should start drinking this early in the day. :laughing:
That was a funny attempt at minimizing my point.



The fact that we are at 94% of GDP has nothing to do with the debt cieling, it has to do with spending.
You are attempting to dirty this up. The country has a 2% surplus to debt ratio. We owe $14.32 trillion and we have a GDP of 14.66 trillion as of May. We currently possess more then enough funds to pay for all federally held private and publicly debt owed by the government.

My point... we do not need to raise the the amount of debt we can incur at this moment. If we do... it will allow for more spending. This is the wrong direction , regardless which political party is in charge. Bush raised it every time it came across his desk... this was the wrong thing to do. But he also had the receipts to cover the raise until the crash. We do not have those receipts today...
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
I agree completely with you that this is well designed....so why would you want to do exactly what will give those who have set this all up the mechanism they need to finalize their plan. Again you me and everybody on this sight will lose everything. You will be handing all power and control to the people who have sold this country down the tiolet. I just think that if this is the plan to get rid of the problems in washington, we are just trading those problems for much much worse problems. :crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy::crazy:
We just have to disagree on this one.. :laughing: The Feds are not going to cut spending, unless it's something that directly hurts the poeple. Thats why cities like to hit police/fire first on budget cuts, people will rebuke that, so the worst cuts are always first.

:cheers:

 

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That was a funny attempt at minimizing my point.





You are attempting to dirty this up. The country has a 2% surplus to debt ratio. We owe $14.32 trillion and we have a GDP of 14.66 trillion as of May. We currently possess more then enough funds to pay for all federally held private and publicly debt owed by the government.

My point... we do not need to raise the the amount of debt we can incur at this moment. If we do... it will allow for more spending. This is the wrong direction , regardless which political party is in charge. Bush raised it every time it came across his desk... this was the wrong thing to do. But he also had the receipts to cover the raise until the crash. We do not have those receipts today...
You seem to be a mean drunk today...not only ripping into Dune with some incredible vitriol but then thinking I am busting on you.

You are the one confusing things here. The debt limit is there to allow us to pay our debts. It does not allow for any amount of spending. It is not a budget extension or raise. It is simply what has to be passed so we can pay our bills, above the limit we had before. If you don't want to pass more of these then either raise taxes so we get more income or cut spending so we don't have so much outgoing but right now we have to pay our bills or we default.

It is very simple. I will do one more analogy so you understand. If you have your houshold budget and you buy a house and a boat and a car and some other things , and you can afford them, then you simply make the payments and you live happily. If you suddenly lose your overtime and cannot make the payments you have to sell some things or borrow money to make up the difference between your bills and your income. If you cannot sell anything fast enough you have to get some kind of loan to make up the difference. If you choose not to take on this debt and not make the payments, then you will default on your loans. the interest on all your credit cards will instantly shoot up to the maximum rate, of about 33%, and you will start loosing your stuff. Your credit will become **** and any loan you hope to get will cost you much more. Your insurance will also go way up.
Does this sound like the fiscaly responsible choice to make???


By the way your debt to GDP ratio means nothing, unless of course you are suggesting that we have a 100% tax. The GDP or Gross domestic Product is the total of all economic activity in the entire country in one year. The only way the the GDP would cover the 14.5 trillion debt we have would be if we taxed every single financial transaction 100%. I think you do not actualy understand this issue.
 

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That wasn't harsh... was it ? Maybe we are both drinking... and do not realize it.

Dune got what he deserved... and that is the way that is. If he insulted you the way he did me... you would have done no different. ;)
 
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