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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all,

I have posted on this project recently on the other forum and it seems like no one else has or is running the Edelbrock EFI proflo setup on anything, probably because it's an older efi setup. Maybe someone does here?

Anyway, it's what I have and had run for 15k miles and 15 years on my 383 and I'll never go back to a carb. Can't afford a whole new efi setup, so I am modding what I have.

Basically the motor is a Dart Little M 427 sbc with AFR Eliminator 210 heads and a solid roller cam, 630/630 252/258 dur 111 LS.

Anyway, the motor is getting finished and I took the intake setup to them today to check the port match and the AFR head intake runners are so tall that the intake, which is based off of a Victor Jr. won't even seal, much less match up. Of course with my hundred questions to the Edelbrock efi tech line, this never came up...

So they are having to add metal to the top of each runner, then port the runners and the plenum. They say that getting it to flow enough for 600 hp shouldn't be a problem, but I'm looking at $500. There is no other intake or Throttle body I can use with this setup because the TB bolt spacing is odd and additionally requires a unique throttle position sensor (among other things) that prevents me from doing any parts swapping. The Victor EFI intake won't even work.

So here are the EFI mods I will have h ad to make.
1. New 48 lb (Venom) injectors=$400
2. New chip for the longer duration cam=$50
3. Port work on the intake = $500
Total approx. $950

Clearly this is still way cheaper than going with an entirely new EFI setup, but it is still pretty expensive for a fairly primitive system.

I'll post some pictures of the welding/port work if I can before they put it on the motor if anyone is interested.
 

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primitive?????

I'm running one, and have ZERO complaints on my big block. I installed one last summer on a small block with the new Vortec head/intake design. Worked like a champ. I think you are on the right path to convert yours to get the most kick with the least amount of cash.

Primitive????? I think it is just right as it is. It is as simple as needed to give you a sequential EFI system that is flexible to support different engine combinations and can be tuned in a snap - no lap top needed.

They do have some new software out for them and they have a new design that is laptop compatible if that is what you are after. Maybe they would work with you on a deep discount or something to try the new stuff out.

O/T a bit, but the only thing I would "upgrade" to in the future - is simply a total replacement of the entire engine as the Gen 1 and 2 small block/big block is truly primitive compared to the LS series of motors. Now that they have the LSx GM performance block, and a new one coming out soon that will go to 500 CID in a small block exterior package (LS1,2,6,7) - My future thought is to dump the 454 and EFI in favor of a LSx mini-monster. How cool would that be - pushing 500 cid?????
 

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I don't like all hype and advertisement Edelbrock intakes. Very piss poor products.

IMO - you would be better off buying the correct for those AFR heads intake manifold and modding it for your EFI. Correctly designed intake port contours cause a ram effect for cylinder filling. Just like heads you don't just start hogging out the port and expect it to work better. Even port flow is critical

Manifolds like my Motown have all the pads to tap and drill for the injectors
 

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I'm running one, and have ZERO complaints on my big block. I installed one last summer on a small block with the new Vortec head/intake design. Worked like a champ. I think you are on the right path to convert yours to get the most kick with the least amount of cash.

Primitive????? I think it is just right as it is. It is as simple as needed to give you a sequential EFI system that is flexible to support different engine combinations and can be tuned in a snap - no lap top needed.

They do have some new software out for them and they have a new design that is laptop compatible if that is what you are after. Maybe they would work with you on a deep discount or something to try the new stuff out.

O/T a bit, but the only thing I would "upgrade" to in the future - is simply a total replacement of the entire engine as the Gen 1 and 2 small block/big block is truly primitive compared to the LS series of motors. Now that they have the LSx GM performance block, and a new one coming out soon that will go to 500 CID in a small block exterior package (LS1,2,6,7) - My future thought is to dump the 454 and EFI in favor of a LSx mini-monster. How cool would that be - pushing 500 cid?????

That would be WAY cool.

I have an engine-less C2 Roadster just begging for such an upgrade.
:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #5
69myway, thanks for the info. Well, I guess when I say primitive, I do mean the ability to calibrate it with a laptop. I have the software info somewhere, but that is like $75 if I remember right, and then you need an EPROM burner for another 100-150 (and an eprom eraser, but I got one of those for $5 on ebay). Don't get me wrong, I have had this setup since '93 or so on my 383 and love it, the motor ALWAYS runs perfectly and has never flooded, failed to start etc. Throttle response is also very nice. I'll never go back to a carb setup.

George,
I did consider going with a different intake and down the road may still, but below are the issues. I think that I could get a custom made spacer adaptor and still have it work with a different intake, but it would be taller (in addition to the taller intake).

1. The proflo throttle body has a unique bolt spacing as well as throttle position sensor. What this means is that you can't put it on another manifold and that you can't run another throttle body with this efi system.

2. Hood clearance. This setup does fit under my stock hood with a drop base air cleaner. I did get an L88 hood, but even with that, a taller intake could cause problems and my L88 hood won't be painted to match for a long time anyway.

The engine builder indicates that I should get 600 hp out of it after the port work on the runners and the plenum, no problem, so I'm not too worried, just the cost is bad, $300-$500 is what they told me today.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
69myway,

I forgot to respond to your LSX comments. I totally agree. I think the standard deck iron, LSX motor came out in May? The tall deck is supposed to follow. I think I read the tall deck you can stroke and bore to get 510 ci if I remember correctly. That and some better flowing heads, 18 degree on those? and those composite intakes flow really well too. I have an article somewhere with the LSX 454 they put in the Reggie Jackson Camaro. Think it was like 640 hp and 600 tq on a hydraulic roller with pump gas!

Think the blocks are around $2200. How much are aftermarket heads for those? I think the AFR Mongoose heads are 225 cfm and flow some pretty good numbers, probably $2k or so for those. Then you need a donor intake setup, custom headers and custom calibration on the computer, I am guessing (or a $2k FAST system (just wiring and computer for that I think)).

I wonder what a donor efi setup for an LS2 motor runs? $1k? Doubt you could put that together for 11k, which is what I will have in mine. Maybe not much more though.
 

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George,
I did consider going with a different intake and down the road may still, but below are the issues. I think that I could get a custom made spacer adaptor and still have it work with a different intake, but it would be taller (in addition to the taller intake).

1. The proflo throttle body has a unique bolt spacing as well as throttle position sensor. What this means is that you can't put it on another manifold and that you can't run another throttle body with this efi system.

2. Hood clearance. This setup does fit under my stock hood with a drop base air cleaner. I did get an L88 hood, but even with that, a taller intake could cause problems and my L88 hood won't be painted to match for a long time anyway.

The engine builder indicates that I should get 600 hp out of it after the port work on the runners and the plenum, no problem, so I'm not too worried, just the cost is bad, $300-$500 is what they told me today.
your answer #1. If it cost say $500 to mod yours, it would easily cost that much to take a $250 (new intake) and have it tapped for 8 injectors and modded to what ever bolt pattern your TB is. I just don't like over rated Edlbrock BS manifolds. I'm very impressed with my Motown intake.

#2 With a Team "G" single plane I used a 3X14 K&N open element with a 1/2 inch wood spacer. Because of the height of the motown i had to drop to 2X14 with a filter lid.

#3 You are lucky in one respect. Port injection does not have to worry about the same wet flow problems as a carb. Carbed high RPM single plane manifolds have to be tall to prevent fuel seperation as the flow changes nearly 90 degrees at the plenum base. Fuel injection only requires a tuned individual port with sufficient plenum volume. You could actually make a tall single plane milled down work. It could even be angle milled at the top. Because the port is what you are really after.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks George. Yeah, the guy doing the port work said the same thing about fuel suspension not being an issue, but that is good to hear it from you as well.

I hadn't thought about milling down a better intake, after I see how this thing runs, that is likely what I will do as a future upgrade (will still need a stepped spacer/adapter to make the throttle body fit though). I'll definitely go with a different intake when I do this, I know those Motown intakes are what they used on the Bill Mitchell engines and they make some very good power on pump gas, this with mediocre cylinder heads. So I would guess the intakes are a relatively strong point of the motors. I did read the Motown head castings were recently reworked? I forgot, what heads do you have on your 434 (I know they aren't AFR's, lol)?
 

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I had Dart 227 cc heads on my 383 for a couple of years when I bought the Bill Mitchel AFR 210 equiped Motown block 427. I should have just sold the AFR 210 heads when they were unused, But instead I installed .750 lift $400 springs to take on the bigger solid cam that installed in the 427 and spent a bunch of time with an air dremel fixing the oil returns

I pulled out my running 383 to be my spare motor. All I took off of it was the distributer, Team G intake, and carb. Well it did not take me very long to blow up the 427. It is so nice to have a hot rod spare motor all ready go go:laughing: Just yanked the 427 out and stuffed the 383 back in. My poor old Vette was running the next day.

Then I got to thinking about using the AFR 210's on the 383 to do some back to back Dart - AFR testing while my 427 was being x-formed into a 434.

Without a dyno run I really could not tell the difference in how my 7500 rpm 383 ran. It is a fun car with a 4.11 & 5 speed. Not the brutish torque of the 427, just a good hot rod.

I do think that hot rodded 427 and 434's need all the air they can get. I really like my new custom cammed 434 with Dart heads.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Your 434 has the Dart 227 heads on it? Those are CNC ported heads aren't they? Pretty expensive too for a sbc.
 

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Your 434 has the Dart 227 heads on it? Those are CNC ported heads aren't they? Pretty expensive too for a sbc.
Just a couple grand for the pair. Then I also upgraded to titanium intakes, stud girdle, and .800 lift roller springs.

They also really need to use shaft rockers with offset lifters. I'm not using them because I had to cut some corners on the budget. They use what is called a 60/40 valve arrangement. Which means that they spaced the valve guide and rotated them in the chamber compared to stock heads. Typical heads are kind of limited to 2.08/1.60 and the valve are nearly touching. These altered valve heads can use about .100 inch larger.

So anyway my rocker/pushrods are not quite straight. But I was told that my sub 7500 rpm motor would be fine.

I made some mistakes years ago about buying too much 23 degree stuff. I should have just bit the bullet and gone with 12 - 18 degree heads with spead port headers and special intake manifolds. Instead of my half ass approach.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I know what you mean about having to draw the line though. I should have gone with 227 heads too, but was under the impression that they required shaft rockers, not for high rpm, but for street driving. This was according to the AFR tech notes. Not sure why this is the opposite of what you were told. I would think the stress would be at high RPM's like your saying. Otherwise, I would have gotten the AFR 227's instead of the 210's (they discontinued the 220's). I just have the 1.6 comp cams roller rockers and matching AFR stud girdles.
 

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I was just out running my Vette today. Just beautiful!:D

I have to buy an in car mount for my V camera. It is Fathers day and i went out did some thrashing.

I live in a nice place. Mountain roads with 5500 ft elevation change. My rear tires are burnt. I have new 335/35/17 ordered. I was thinking about the poor springs getting beat up when I was WOT to 7000+ rpm in 2-3-4

It's like the best $400 springs loose 15-25 pounds within a year in a 7000+ rpm motor. I'm sure that my now .685/.714 lift with radical racing lobed is just beating them up:laughing:

Your heads will do great! AFR 210 eleminator are advertised at 300+ What you have to do is keep the valve open to max amount of time at the highest CFM

Guys buy these great flowing heads and install a low to mid .500 lift H-roller with mild ramp cams. Well add up the the T-1 T-2 t-3........... VS duration of how much time it spends at so my claimed CFM of your heads?????

That is why I always went for big CFM heads and less duration

Every real race car out competing does the same thing.
 

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Did you know that grumpy Vette on this forum knowns allot about DFI EFI?

His knowledge base could help you out.

He got heckled years ago on the C-4 forum. He knows his stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grumpy has been around racing for years.

If you look at some ones post and they take the time to list web add,s of real info it shows that they care enough to being try to help out.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
OK cool, I'll check some of his posts and may send him an email.

My motor should be done this week, so I'll have some pics to post soon. Got about half the dissassembly done prepping for the new motor. Will need to spend some time cleaning up the engine bay though.

Also need to decide on rebuilding the power steering pump/system now or not.
 
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