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No. No they can not. They can be messed up beyond repair by hand grinding on such a precision piece. I know this is the part where you explain to me how your eye-crometer is more accurate and balanced than CNC, right?
Tony Mamo was behind a special Drag Race C4 about 8-9 years back.
Small Block Chevy 454 ci.

New 245 AFR heads 23 degree valve inclination angles.

Car ran low 10s all motor.
High 9's on a shot of NOS.

Ported by hand by Mammo.
Mini ram intake too.

CFC4.
Gunny witnessed too.
 

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Can they be improved on with some hand blending.
No. No they can not. They can be messed up beyond repair by hand grinding on such a precision piece. I know this is the part where you explain to me how your eye-crometer is more accurate and balanced than CNC, right?
No this is the part where I tell you the cnc can't reach certain parts that and a well qualified and experienced porter can get improvements. Can't argue with stupid. I must be an idiot and wasted all my money on MMS heads should have just got the AFR out of the box version. So tell me how you think they develop a cnc program to port heads then WIZ. Tell me more how guys who special order from Chris Staub and Tony Mamo are better off getting a non massaged head. Yes if I put a grinder in mine, maniacs or yours wiz chances are we would screw it up. I do not have a flow bench or flow balls to find the dead spots to work out a head port. Plus what Maniac is saying in other words you can have best flowing intake port of all time but if you can't get the air out the exhaust you are only as good as the weakest link.
 

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No. No they can not. They can be messed up beyond repair by hand grinding on such a precision piece. I know this is the part where you explain to me how your eye-crometer is more accurate and balanced than CNC, right?
Tony Mamo was behind a special Drag Race C4 about 8-9 years back.
Small Block Chevy 454 ci.

New 245 AFR heads 23 degree valve inclination angles.

Car ran low 10s all motor.
High 9's on a shot of NOS.

Ported by hand by Mammo.
Mini ram intake too.

CFC4.
Gunny witnessed too.
He was on the team that redesigned allot of the AFR head designs. He knows where corners were cut costs and machine speed must be realized and where mistakes are in the programming. Also the play in the machines that punch out production heads in a production environment. Look it is a business things need to happen at certain times. You think people wait 6 to 8 months for his stuff cause it is slower as machined lol. I am sure your boss will be excited that you are calling the guys that are icons in the industry not knowing what they are doing. Shows the expertise that is offered at his shop!!
 

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Discussion Starter #1,025
Do you remember the GTO? It started after my first LS3 C5 swap. And we used the block of the LS6 from the c5 swap. It is at the start of this thread: https://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241858

It was the Blue Lemans edition z06 C5 that came in with a chunk blown out of the head. Because they were hand ported. ROFL. It's like people from the old school don't understand that yesterday we made **** and it had extra meat all over the place. Today engines are made to be light and because of production runs of millions at a time, every ounce of wasted material matters. So todays stuff doesn't really have a bunch of excess material to be ground away like the stuff from yesteryear. So if you are gonna play here it needs to be more precise and accurate than your hand on a roto tool. I get that. Because I have seen things like this z06 with 24k on the odometer. Things like this..

 

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No this is the part where I tell you the cnc can't reach certain parts....

What decade are you living in? I am half way through 2018, myself. wanna see a toy? A desktop 5 axis cnc mill?



Please don't tell me there are places that a cnc mill can't reach
No just a production environment, time, and cost of manufacturing all needs to be considered. Nothing is ideal wiz. Pros are aware of limitations like you speak of port velocity is getting better and better with smaller ports. They are blending not porting big difference. Some one who knows what's going on knows the limitations and risks envolved. It is a specialized field. Nice toy would be fun to own I like laser titanium/aluminum 3d printer also. There is a difference between removing and smoothing a little where needed over reshaping a whole port also.
 

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No just a production environment, time, and cost of manufacturing all needs to be considered. Nothing is ideal wiz. Pros are aware of limitations like you speak of port velocity is getting better and better with smaller ports. They are blending not porting big difference. Some one who knows what's going on knows the limitations and risks envolved. It is a specialized field. Nice toy would be fun to own I like laser titanium/aluminum 3d printer also. There is a difference between removing and smoothing a little where needed over reshaping a whole port also.

At it's core the problem here is you guys still think that your hands and your eyes are better than the machines we have created. I am sorry for you. Because if you do not change this thinking you will be left behind. At first by this industry but ultimately by the world. We made these machines to be more precise than we can be. Than we made these ultra sensitive controllers. And today we are elbow deep in machines making machines. And why would you want to put your nasty low resolution hand in that mix?? Don't you understand we made the machines to be more precise than we can be? How do you not get this simple principal to todays environment and landscape in the automotive industry? Don't you understand that you are not capable of drawing the same picture identically twice, let alone 8 times? But that is what we designed these machines to do and very well.
 

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At it's core the problem here is you guys still think that your hands and your eyes are better than the machines we have created. I am sorry for you. Because if you do not change this thinking you will be left behind. At first by this industry but ultimately by the world. We made these machines to be more precise than we can be. Than we made these ultra sensitive controllers. And today we are elbow deep in machines making machines. And why would you want to put your nasty low resolution hand in that mix?? Don't you understand we made the machines to be more precise than we can be? How do you not get this simple principal to todays environment and landscape in the automotive industry? Don't you understand that you are not capable of drawing the same picture identically twice, let alone 8 times? But that is what we designed these machines to do and very well.

La La Land tonight.


Every Single Corvette Drawn up on Blueprint paper or on a Computer was from the Human Mind.


Every Artist sketch of the Corvette came from the human mind.


The Small Block Chevy, Big Block Chevy, LS & LSX came from the Human Mind.
So did the Pontiac V8.
The Pontiac V8 is oldest of all.
Drawn up on paper in 1946.


Big Chief still wins Twin Turbo Pontiac fairly often.
 

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No just a production environment, time, and cost of manufacturing all needs to be considered. Nothing is ideal wiz. Pros are aware of limitations like you speak of port velocity is getting better and better with smaller ports. They are blending not porting big difference. Some one who knows what's going on knows the limitations and risks envolved. It is a specialized field. Nice toy would be fun to own I like laser titanium/aluminum 3d printer also. There is a difference between removing and smoothing a little where needed over reshaping a whole port also.

At it's core the problem here is you guys still think that your hands and your eyes are better than the machines we have created. I am sorry for you. Because if you do not change this thinking you will be left behind. At first by this industry but ultimately by the world. We made these machines to be more precise than we can be. Than we made these ultra sensitive controllers. And today we are elbow deep in machines making machines. And why would you want to put your nasty low resolution hand in that mix?? Don't you understand we made the machines to be more precise than we can be? How do you not get this simple principal to todays environment and landscape in the automotive industry? Don't you understand that you are not capable of drawing the same picture identically twice, let alone 8 times? But that is what we designed these machines to do and very well.
Lol I never said that I spoke of cost efficient not hand and eye vs. Machine in "ideal" conditions. I suggest you read up more on manufacturing and economics. Formula 1 has what you speak of but last I knew you built protouring street cars. But you know it all Wiz. Here is a good read if you are truely interested. https://www.sae.org/publications/books/content/r-457/
 

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I'm a big fan of Tony Mamo. He pretty much gave me a set of AFR 1039 heads for my LT4 engine. He did some hand blending on them......however.......he personally designed that particular head. He know the wall thickness of that particular head, he knows where more material can be safely removed and not compromise the integrity of the casting. He was able to get the intake flow up to 315 CFM and 240 something on the exhaust. But, they were his heads. If the engineers at GM could have safely hogged out the ports for more power, they probably would have done that for horsepower bragging rights.

There is a hand porter, Lloyd Elliot , that does very good porting work on heads. They flow great and are proven at the track. There is another company, Advanced Induction, that does a very good job also porting the LT1/LT4 heads. They use a 5 axis CNC machine. They have done many and know the limitations, including core shift, that may cause a problem. That is their limiting factor. You can only go as far as your last known failure.

Bigger ports aren't always the answer. Port size determines Horsepower at RPM and where the torque curve lies. I wouldn't want a 250 cc head with 2.188 valves on a small block Chevy. You would make no torque until over 5000 RPM and horsepower could only be made above 7000 or 8000.

I'm going to have to go with Autowiz on this and say that GM knows how to make their heads best for the application they're after. These engines have got to run smoothly from idle to redline. More porting will only slow your intake velocity and decrease your bottom end torque.

Brian can only talk about race cars. He has no knowledge of what a street car has to do. Most street cars will spend their life at something less than 3000 RPM but they also got to bust ass at 6500. That's the design and GM has hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't screw with what a multi-billion dollar company thinks is best for their particular application. You might be able to find a few horsepower but at the cost of driveability........I don't think so.
 

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I'm a big fan of Tony Mamo. He pretty much gave me a set of AFR 1039 heads for my LT4 engine. He did some hand blending on them......however.......he personally designed that particular head. He know the wall thickness of that particular head, he knows where more material can be safely removed and not compromise the integrity of the casting. He was able to get the intake flow up to 315 CFM and 240 something on the exhaust. But, they were his heads. If the engineers at GM could have safely hogged out the ports for more power, they probably would have done that for horsepower bragging rights.

There is a hand porter, Lloyd Elliot , that does very good porting work on heads. They flow great and are proven at the track. There is another company, Advanced Induction, that does a very good job also porting the LT1/LT4 heads. They use a 5 axis CNC machine. They have done many and know the limitations, including core shift, that may cause a problem. That is their limiting factor. You can only go as far as your last known failure.

Bigger ports aren't always the answer. Port size determines Horsepower at RPM and where the torque curve lies. I wouldn't want a 250 cc head with 2.188 valves on a small block Chevy. You would make no torque until over 5000 RPM and horsepower could only be made above 7000 or 8000.

I'm going to have to go with Autowiz on this and say that GM knows how to make their heads best for the application they're after. These engines have got to run smoothly from idle to redline. More porting will only slow your intake velocity and decrease your bottom end torque.

Brian can only talk about race cars. He has no knowledge of what a street car has to do. Most street cars will spend their life at something less than 3000 RPM but they also got to bust ass at 6500. That's the design and GM has hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't screw with what a multi-billion dollar company thinks is best for their particular application. You might be able to find a few horsepower but at the cost of driveability........I don't think so.
I dug Deeper Last night.
On the LS1 Forum others said the LS7 Head Is Flawed.
Weak Exhaust Ports.

Comes to Factory LS Or LSX. You Want only LS3 Heads.

Or buy Trickflow.
AFR.
 

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I'm a big fan of Tony Mamo. He pretty much gave me a set of AFR 1039 heads for my LT4 engine. He did some hand blending on them......however.......he personally designed that particular head. He know the wall thickness of that particular head, he knows where more material can be safely removed and not compromise the integrity of the casting. He was able to get the intake flow up to 315 CFM and 240 something on the exhaust. But, they were his heads. If the engineers at GM could have safely hogged out the ports for more power, they probably would have done that for horsepower bragging rights.

There is a hand porter, Lloyd Elliot , that does very good porting work on heads. They flow great and are proven at the track. There is another company, Advanced Induction, that does a very good job also porting the LT1/LT4 heads. They use a 5 axis CNC machine. They have done many and know the limitations, including core shift, that may cause a problem. That is their limiting factor. You can only go as far as your last known failure.

Bigger ports aren't always the answer. Port size determines Horsepower at RPM and where the torque curve lies. I wouldn't want a 250 cc head with 2.188 valves on a small block Chevy. You would make no torque until over 5000 RPM and horsepower could only be made above 7000 or 8000.

I'm going to have to go with Autowiz on this and say that GM knows how to make their heads best for the application they're after. These engines have got to run smoothly from idle to redline. More porting will only slow your intake velocity and decrease your bottom end torque.

Brian can only talk about race cars. He has no knowledge of what a street car has to do. Most street cars will spend their life at something less than 3000 RPM but they also got to bust ass at 6500. That's the design and GM has hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't screw with what a multi-billion dollar company thinks is best for their particular application. You might be able to find a few horsepower but at the cost of driveability........I don't think so.

I am not the only One that thinks Race Car.
A Corvette Is A Race Car.


GRUMPY.
He Posted Yesterday a 496 Big Block Chevy Making almost 900 HP Normal Aspirated.
13.0 :1 static compression.
Knock the Dicks off Of Dodge Power.
 

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I'm a big fan of Tony Mamo. He pretty much gave me a set of AFR 1039 heads for my LT4 engine. He did some hand blending on them......however.......he personally designed that particular head. He know the wall thickness of that particular head, he knows where more material can be safely removed and not compromise the integrity of the casting. He was able to get the intake flow up to 315 CFM and 240 something on the exhaust. But, they were his heads. If the engineers at GM could have safely hogged out the ports for more power, they probably would have done that for horsepower bragging rights.

There is a hand porter, Lloyd Elliot , that does very good porting work on heads. They flow great and are proven at the track. There is another company, Advanced Induction, that does a very good job also porting the LT1/LT4 heads. They use a 5 axis CNC machine. They have done many and know the limitations, including core shift, that may cause a problem. That is their limiting factor. You can only go as far as your last known failure.

Bigger ports aren't always the answer. Port size determines Horsepower at RPM and where the torque curve lies. I wouldn't want a 250 cc head with 2.188 valves on a small block Chevy. You would make no torque until over 5000 RPM and horsepower could only be made above 7000 or 8000.

I'm going to have to go with Autowiz on this and say that GM knows how to make their heads best for the application they're after. These engines have got to run smoothly from idle to redline. More porting will only slow your intake velocity and decrease your bottom end torque.

Brian can only talk about race cars. He has no knowledge of what a street car has to do. Most street cars will spend their life at something less than 3000 RPM but they also got to bust ass at 6500. That's the design and GM has hit the nail on the head. I wouldn't screw with what a multi-billion dollar company thinks is best for their particular application. You might be able to find a few horsepower but at the cost of driveability........I don't think so.

All Yesterday On Grumps Place we are fighting a problem together as a Group.
Have a Younger guy with a 1967 Camaro.
496 Ci BBC Shortblock built by him.
A Pro Built 4L80E with a Transgo 4L80E-3 shift kit.


Grumpy has a cam he chose.
Engine simulations look Stellar for a Pump gas Runner.
Going to be a Dual Purpose car.
Street & Dragstrip.
10's wanted in 1/4 mile.
Obtainable all Motor No Power Adder.


Discovered He needs 11-14 inches of Intake manifold vacuum to work the Vavuum Modulator transplanted inside of the 4L80E.


Had 800 HP almost on Paper.
Grumps STREET RACE CAM PROFILE.


Studying Graphs Grump was puzzled.
Down Low Not much there.
I determined it was do to Low Intake port velocity with the 290 AFR Heads.


Now gotta find a cam to pull enough vacuum.


I proved exhaust in place knocks down 55-75 HP in a BBC.
Only way around is to run Dual 5 Inch.
Have to weld on 5 inch collectors if not on the headers.


Just ****....Down on Torque & HP.




Pontiac Had High Velocity Ports.
Traded CFM top End numbers .
614 What I have are perfect balanced.
I have had them Flow Tested by a Pro Head porter in Chicago.
On his 1000 CFM Superflow Flow Bench.
He was shocked How Good they Are and the Numbers.
Never once did they WHISTLE OR SCREAM.
No Turbulence.
 

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I also did Tech Yesterday On The Trans Am Forum.
About 75 % of the guys are your Age Gunny.


We shifted from Pro Touring that No can afford.
Literally hundreds of unfinished cars.
Ran out of $$$$.
TO STREET PERFORMANCE.


The Guys Post.
Wait for me to answer.
They know I am the Best.
 

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We shifted from Pro Touring that No can afford.
Literally hundreds of unfinished cars.
Ran out of $$$$.
TO STREET PERFORMANCE.
So why don't you just say it. In an ultimate display of jelousy You hate what you can't afford. And that is ok. But you can just say I cant afford it so I hate it. You don't have bash on it.


There are no unfinished pro tour builds in our shop and we have done so many. This must just be a problem in your area or at your shop.
 

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So why don't you just say it. In an ultimate display of jelousy You hate what you can't afford. And that is ok. But you can just say I cant afford it so I hate it. You don't have bash on it.


There are no unfinished pro tour builds in our shop and we have done so many. This must just be a problem in your area or at your shop.
You did not do the Bodywork and paintwork yourself on any car shown.
You did not build any engine, transmission, & Rear Differential yourself.

Your Bolt on Guy.
Tuner Guy.

Small time Fab guy.

Everything you do is Crate package.

Your shop does not represent the rest of the USA.
Just an Anominally.
 

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Discussion Starter #1,040
You did not do the Bodywork and paintwork yourself on any car shown.
You did not build any engine, transmission, & Rear Differential yourself.

Your Bolt on Guy.
Tuner Guy.

Small time Fab guy.

Everything you do is Crate package.

Your shop does not represent the rest of the USA.
Just an Anominally.
Your right. I am just a bolt on Guy



Just a Small time Fab Guy



Everything I do is a crate motor





 
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